$5/$10 B&M Kill Hand

[T50_Omaha8]

$5/$10 FR game with full kill at the Mirage.

Played a hand with villian earlier when I had NLD & NFD on flop, I played flop aggro from early position, turn paired board but gave me another K high flush draw, I checked, he bet it, I called, river was a high card that filled my K-high flush, he bet, I called, he turned over ace high--stone bluff, busted naked low draw.

In this hand that guy was UTG in a kill pot, with the kill button on UTG+1. UTG calls $10 and the kill button checks (acts in turn at Mirage, apparently), folds around to me and I look down at:

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I raise, both blinds fold, UTG and UTG+1 (kill) call, pot probably $67 or so with 3 players.

Flop: K J 8 rainbow. Everybody checks.
Turn: 7, suited with the jack, UTG bets and the kill button folds. Hero's action?

Also do we like the raise preflop?

[fishyak]

I gather the J7 aren't diamonds. I don't see how raising gets you anything. Just call the turn. Kill pots tends to be tighter. If that is the way your table played, I would not raise pre-flop. I'd put the pressure on later when there would be more money at stake.

[howzit]

i'd probably bet the flop to protect my future continuation bets and hopefully he might muck a better pair.

on the turn, how likely is he to have T9? or have gone for a flop c/r? he seems more of hte aggressive type so he probably would've fired into if he had a made hand on the flop.

almost 5:1 to call here. so i would call. you have a protected nutlow draw and back door trips.

for me, preflop is automatic raise.

[T50_Omaha8]

Yeah, the J7 was not diamonds.

[ QUOTE ]
Kill pots tends to be tighter. If that is the way your table played, I would not raise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't understand this. The table did play a tighter preflop during kill pots, and I realize this isn't a great both-ways equity hand, but I felt a raise preflop would make BB and SB fold marginal holdings very often, and the kill button's check made me think he might fold to aggression too. I raised for the chance to get nearly $20 worth of dead money in a heads up pot.

A flop c/r was possible, but unlikely. I'm not sure what types of hand's I'd limp UTG in a kill pot--that's possibly an exclusively raise/fold situation with kill left to act. I guess a bad player holding KKxx might be consistent with a limp PF then check/raise flop, but that seems like pretty much it.

Should I really be betting this flop? Anyone who has any sort of draw will stick around getting over 7:1. I felt like my fold equity was pretty slim.

Well, my pair of 8's made me think I often have at least one or two outs for high, so I called. The river came a 3, non-flush, and he checked it to me. Who bets here? Is it just feeding rake?

[howzit]

T50,

i think you might want to clear up a couple of things. Your hand is very strong in the whole scheme of things. you have A2 w/a nut low counterfeit protection, and you're suited to the ace. it's a two way hand. You also have position AND you have a good line on the way UTG plays.

you are in a very good position.

flop play is standard, i'd check most of the times but i'd also bet a few percentage of the times depending on how UTG and UTG + 2 checked. in case somebody had something like QQA4 or something like that. but seeing that this is low limit and probably a looser game, checking behind is probably the correct play.

as for the river, this is an auto bet. nut low, and two pair. UTG may have been taking a stab on the turn with a weaker low draw or he may look you up with a one pair high hand thinking you made your A2 low.

bet and call if you get c/r.

[T50_Omaha8]

Ok, thanks for the advice!

[fishyak]

There are two reasons I do not raise this PF. 1) Flops like this that got you nowhere and made a check on the flop round correct. 2) As a kill pot and with a good PF hand + position, I want to give the blinds a chance to pony up and play. Then, IF I catch a decent flop, then I raise.

I am real new at O/8 so feel free to fill me in. I just think I would rather wait to raise under these conditions, but I do see your point about getting dead $ into the pot. Is there some meaningful analysis that some expert can provide to point us one way or the other, or this just a playing style thing?

[TxRedMan]

The raise preflop is close, imo. Being a kill pot I probably would have just limped, hoping to get the blinds involved, because if they have A2x they're calling, and if they have crap they're folding, so if you raise and they call sometimes you will be holding similar low hands. Thus, if you just limp they will complete/check option and potentially call down with inferior draws and make the pot bigger- and it's very unlikely they will make the nut low holding cards worse than yours, unless you get double/triple counterfeited.


I think just calling would be better, but if the blinds were bad and the game had been aggressive this raise is fine. A raise in this spot with this hand shouldn't be to isolate- it should be made to increase the amount of $ that goes into the pot preflop. I don't think that was accomplished, but it's still not a terrible raise. Calling here will have more long term EV, though.


On the flop you should bet. If raised you can easily fold.


On the turn after the flop bet I would check behind.


As you played it, call the bet on the turn. Any low card makes you the nut low, and you have a lot of ways to make the nut low + 2 pair. You really want to see an A,2,3 on the river- 9 outs that make you the nut low/2 pair.


21 cards make you the best low, 9 cards make you the nut low+ 2 pair, and 2 cards give you trips.

you're getting 3.5-1 to call the turn, and given the description of the player who's betting, he could have picked up the NLD only- who knows. You might be drawing at half the pot only, but this is an auto call here. Sometimes you will scoop in this spot, too, when you make 2 pair and the nut low, which, is a strong hand HU.




-Tex

[T50_Omaha8]

Thanks for the analysis, man. I felt a bit odd throwing $20 in preflop with a hand that misses a pretty good % of flops, which is why I questioned the raise afterwards. [ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you will scoop in this spot, too, when you make 2 pair and the nut low, which, is a strong hand HU.

[/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what happened. The guy sighed and tossed his cards in the muck like I rivered him (naked AA?) after the dealer and the whole table tried to decipher what my hand actually was for a mysterious amount of time, even though I seperated the high and low hands and announced them quite clearly.