Backwards - 15/30 LO8

[donger]

How often do you guys make plays like this against straightforward players?

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Limit: $15/$30
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB folds.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>

[prodonkey]

If he's straight forward, you're trying to get him to lay down a flush or full house with a low draw?? I don't get it.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's straight forward, you're trying to get him to lay down a flush or full house with a low draw?? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

By straightforward I mean standard, not a calling station, not nutso. Just that he's got a normal range here that's probably weighted towards low hands, given his flop call. I guess I should have said 'standard for these limits'

Also I meant that if he's called with a low hand, he'll probably bet here if I check to try to set up a river bluff if it bricks off again. All of which is the opposite of straightforward, heh.

[cero_z]

Hi donger,

I do this virtually never on this board, for several reasons. One is that the paired deuce is gonna be in our opponent's hand a lot, and he never folds on any street if it is. Another is that we can't get him off a low hand, we probably can't get him off a flush, and we have nothing for hi, so we really only win when he has nothing but lo now AND lo bricks on the river, and it costs us 3 big bets to win the pot +2 big bets, when everything falls into place. Other times, we get quartered for low, we get 3-bet on the turn, we get raised on the river when it bricks because he was full all along or filled, etc., etc.

If he was the pf raiser, I just called pre, and the board was 7729, I'd do this once in a while. IDK; too nitty?

[prodonkey]

I agree with your reasoning cero.. nobody ever folds there heads up. If they have a 2 or flush they are calling and praying. If they have a low draw they are calling and it just extends your bluff out over 2 streets since you are going to feel obligated to bluff at it again if everything bricks.

[donger]

So what are some good spots to misrepresent your hand when the board bricks on the turn? I've been experimenting with donking a pretty wide range after c/cing the flop when HU.

I was kind of experimenting with this particular hand, planning to c/c the river if the low hits (no fold equity) and bet any river bricks otherwise. Is this really laying 3 bets to win two? It seems more like I'm laying a fraction of a bet to set up a bluffing opportunity since I still have reasonable equity on the turn.

Also, I was thinking that he wouldn't be that likely to be slowplaying a FH or trips on this flop since it's two to a low and I could be betting either a flush draw or low draw and can't fold either to a raise since it doesn't really define his hand.

The last thing I was thinking was that he might (might!) wuss out and fold a flush, since I'm CRing what would be a scare card for a hand like three deuces and people normally don't behave this way with low draws.

EDIT: You think the BB is better spent trying to snap a river bluff with AK high? This is pretty out there, but if he has no hand whatsoever (A346, etc) and I c/c the turn it could work. Also, the average player might puss out on valuebetting the middle part of his range here (two pair hands, etc) so if he bets the river, his range would be weighted toward naked bluffs and strong hands.

[prodonkey]

I'm not so sure you have "reasonable" equity on the turn.. if he has any kind of hand on that board it's going to be almost impossible for you to scoop or win the high. Since you have 0 outs to beat a flush, or a 2. You can beat a 7 or 9 if you spike your K or A. So even if he just has something like A4QQ you don't have a whole lot of outs, in that case your A would be good too though.

I just don't think your hand has a whole lot going for it heads up on that board. I'm not calling the river with AK high either.

I'm much more apt to do that when the board pairs, say it was a 27J flop.. and a J rolls off on the turn.

Obviously you are representing a flush.. heads up though I find it rare that people will ever even fold trips here even if they brick on the river, they just make crying calls and they will never fold a flush.

[howzit]

i can't think of much to add on to cero's post: opponent needs to have naked low draw and bust out, opponent's range should have a deuce a high % of time, you can't get a flush to lay this down often enough since it'll usually still be drawing for half.

but, a super sick move regardless of what you have is to run another check/raise on a river card bigger than an eight. if i had a flush from UTG's position, i would feel sick seeing that move.

[howzit]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the average player might puss out on valuebetting the middle part of his range here (two pair hands, etc) so if he bets the river, his range would be weighted toward naked bluffs and strong hands.


[/ QUOTE ]if you checked through a blank river i would value bet my flush.

[Buzz]

Donger - I like the play, but probably would forgo using it.

It's one of the differences between playing more or less anonymously on-line as opposed to playing in the same room with your opponents.

Many people hate you to the point of wanting you dead when you check-raise them. I'm serious.

I have seen some nasty fist fights develop in poker games over the years as a result of one player check-raising another. If you're a winning player, people may tend to resent you anyhow. I don't think you want people looking to take revenge.

But check-raising is within the rules, and I like it here. Hero is basically semi-bluffing with the check-raise. Very hard to read if not used too often. Some opponents who bet the turn after a check would fold poor or mediocre hands to the raise.

Nice play.

Buzz