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  #111  
Old 11-25-2007, 04:02 AM
blah_blah blah_blah is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.

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the point that I am trying to make is that there are not going to be very many courses which are equivalent in content at Iowa State and Harvard. If you pick a top tier public school like Berkeley then the comparison is more meaningful; there are many courses which will be functionally equivalent, and it will probably be harder to obtain a good grade at Berkeley than at Harvard.
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  #112  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:48 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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Perhaps there are very few math courses offered at Harvard and Iowa State that are comparable in content. Do I think that the average undergraduate at Harvard is more intelligent than the average undergraduate at Iowa State? Yes.

My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.

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That conclusion must be wrong. Consider someone who aces all the exams at Iowa State - that doesn't imply they could ace the exams at Harvard. However someone who could ace the exams at Harvard could ace the exams at Iowa State. So the top grades cannot be equivalent and in any non-freaky practice it must follow that the lesser grades are also not equivalent as someone who nearly aces the exams is marked relative to the person who does ace the exams.

chez
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  #113  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:23 PM
Philo Philo is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]

That conclusion must be wrong. Consider someone who aces all the exams at Iowa State - that doesn't imply they could ace the exams at Harvard. However someone who could ace the exams at Harvard could ace the exams at Iowa State. So the top grades cannot be equivalent and in any non-freaky practice it must follow that the lesser grades are also not equivalent as someone who nearly aces the exams is marked relative to the person who does ace the exams.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that someone who aces the exams at Iowa State could also ace the exams at Harvard. I said that we can't conclude that an A- at Iowa State was easier than an A- at Harvard.

Perhaps you didn't see this. I think it emphasizes the same point:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A96E958260

"For most people, if you are getting A's, it means you are doing good work," said Tucker Culbertson, 20, a Princeton junior majoring in English. "If you go to class and participate and write a semi-intelligible paper you get an A."

If I'm wrong it means that students at Iowa State must be graded just as leniently in a class like this as students at Princeton are, and in my experience that is not necessarily true. People don't want to believe that it can be easier to get the A- at Princeton than at Iowa State, but it can be.
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  #114  
Old 11-25-2007, 05:22 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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People don't want to believe that it can be easier to get the A- at Princeton than at Iowa State, but it can be.

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You haven't demonstrated that, just asserted it repeatedly. What I have shown is that comparable classes (e.g., the first introduction to abstract algebra, or freshman "calculus") cover a lot more material at elite schools.

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"For most people, if you are getting A's, it means you are doing good work," said Tucker Culbertson, 20, a Princeton junior majoring in English. "If you go to class and participate and write a semi-intelligible paper you get an A."


[/ QUOTE ]
Even if we take this 20-year-old as an expert (which I don't), so what? Are you claiming it is just as easy to participate in a class and write a semi-intelligible paper at an elite school as it is at a mediocre school? I think the standards for "semi-intelligible" are much higher at elite schools.

For example, here are some papers written by MIT students, I believe mostly freshmen math majors since this was in the second semester of the introduction to analysis. The ones I flipped through aren't great, but they blow away what is expected of second year mathematics majors at typical schools. (At many schools, the introduction to proofs class is aimed at juniors. How do they call themselves math majors before that?) I sat through many worse presentations when I attended the National Conference on Undergraduate Research, where the presenters were typically seniors from mediocre schools.

Even if it is easier to get an A- at an Ivy League school than a typical state school, I would still bet that an A- at an Ivy League school represents more understanding on average than an A- at Iowa State.

There is a component of grade inflation, and you might find that students at Dartmouth are not as bright or as qualified as students at Yale while getting higher grades, or vice versa. However, in my experience this factor is much smaller than the difference between the caliber of the courses at elite schools and mediocre schools.

I mentioned Iowa State because a friend of mine went there. He enjoyed a lot of extra attention from the professors, and he thought he was getting a Harvard-quality education there... until he worked with a bunch of Harvard students, not even the best of Harvard, and found that his background wasn't close.

There are a lot of schools, including better UC campuses and some of the Ivy League schools, where there are widely different ranges of students. These students have the ability to do get a mediocre education, or an elite education, as they choose. However, it is difficult to make it through the required classes at Caltech without getting a great education in the sciences, and it is difficult to get anything close to that while getting straight As at a typical state school.
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  #115  
Old 11-25-2007, 06:33 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

I'm sure Philo's points are truer for non science classes.
A motivated student at Iowa State is going to get better at English Literature than a lazy student who barely skates through Brown. But the same is much less likely to be true in Physics. Innate intelligence, unfortunately plays too great a part.
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  #116  
Old 11-25-2007, 06:52 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say that someone who aces the exams at Iowa State could also ace the exams at Harvard. I said that we can't conclude that an A- at Iowa State was easier than an A- at Harvard.


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You acknowledged that they may not be comparable in content. What can that possibly mean for a maths couse if one is not significantly easily than the other, and what can that mean if being able to ace the harder one doesn't imply being able to ace the easier one?

Your conclusion can only follow if the non-comparable part of the course is not examioned at all.

chez
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  #117  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:39 PM
hitch1978 hitch1978 is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure Philo's points are truer for non science classes.
A motivated student at Iowa State is going to get better at English Literature than a lazy student who barely skates through Brown. But the same is much less likely to be true in Physics. Innate intelligence, unfortunately plays too great a part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taraz and Tame Dueces,

Disagree with this? If so, why? How are you using the definition of intelligence differently to DS?
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  #118  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:52 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure Philo's points are truer for non science classes.
A motivated student at Iowa State is going to get better at English Literature than a lazy student who barely skates through Brown. But the same is much less likely to be true in Physics. Innate intelligence, unfortunately plays too great a part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taraz and Tame Dueces,

Disagree with this? If so, why? How are you using the definition of intelligence differently to DS?

[/ QUOTE ]

The definition of intelligence is too narrow. You can be very intelligent at some mental tasks and not especially adept at math.

And if you are very adept at math you might be bad at some other mental task, and thus not be very intelligent when using those as a measure.
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  #119  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:58 PM
hitch1978 hitch1978 is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure Philo's points are truer for non science classes.
A motivated student at Iowa State is going to get better at English Literature than a lazy student who barely skates through Brown. But the same is much less likely to be true in Physics. Innate intelligence, unfortunately plays too great a part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taraz and Tame Dueces,

Disagree with this? If so, why? How are you using the definition of intelligence differently to DS?

[/ QUOTE ]

The definition of intelligence is too narrow. You can be very intelligent at some mental tasks and not especially adept at math.

And if you are very adept at math you might be bad at some other mental task, and thus not be very intelligent when using those as a measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for answering my questions, but I don't think you've actually answered my questions.
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  #120  
Old 11-25-2007, 08:07 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

I disagree with how it is worded. If you replace 'intelligence' with 'mathematical aptitude' instead in DS' post I would agree with it.

Included in mathematical aptitude I would probably include the ability to work hard with studies, which will always be incredibly helpful in mathematics/physics. You might even want to include measurements of the brain's pleasure centres when reaching mathematical solutions - being geared towards that would be a great boon.

For the rest of my views on how it should be defined, see my above post.
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