The Well: aejones (summary 01/03/07)

bubaloo · #1 11-25-2007, 10:01 AM

The Well: aejones (summary) 01/03/07

[ QUOTE ]
A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except Saturday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer" .

The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on Saturday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on Saturday, it’s your day in the well.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK well I'm getting over some illness so I'm not going anywhere for the next few days..
I don't have the quote, but I'm down in a well, feel free to ask things about anything, or throw things, etc.

 want to give a general background?
what level you play now?
any advice for a SSNL player to get better?
You have any "aha" moment(s) where everything just started to click?
Do you play poker as a living? Goto school? 

I'll look up a general background, I have one written on my computer somewhere.

Now I play primarily 5/10 NL, my shots at 25/50 have gone terribly, and 10/20 is rigged against me, I'm not really doing anything wrong- just a bunch of coinflips and suckouts leaves me down like 10k in 2k hands or something. I still play some 3/6 and 2/4 whenever the games are good. In this state, you need to be able to play more than one level (especially at midstakes) to find decent games.

My advice for SSNL players is: study a lot. I used to spend like 4 hours a day on 2+2 (back when the information was better, honestly). I'm terrible with links, but there's a lot of stuff in the archives that I would highly recommend checking out. Even now, you can find a good discussion or two in HSNL or MSNL. When all else fails, grind grind grind to get a roll, and then get better by experience.

I have "aha" moments all the time. I'm constantly having revelations about "holy [censored] I could be sick good, where did this play come from?" I think the one moment where I decided I could kill online poker is when I got my preflop game together. The one moment I realized I could kill all forms of poker was when reading a thread about a Samo/Bld hand, and a certain thought process, it was just amazing when I realized how sick this particular line was... and then I just started thinking about the game better after that.

I go to college at Butler University in Indianapolis, but I could play professionall if I want. I promised my mother I'd get a college degree, and since I'm not 21 anyways, I don't think I could make that much more money if I only played poker (plus I think I would burn out).

I've had PT since August. This graph is 1/2 and 2/4 primarily from my old computer.

This graph and SS is from my new computer- since Thanksgiving. I haven't played more than 2k hands in the last two weeks, and I didn't play at all for two weeks at the beginning of January becuase I was at the PCA.

How did you build your bankroll for the midstakes games?
How many hands did you play at the lower stakes?
In general what do you like to do as the pfr when you flop middle pair on a dry/wet board oop?
Post a pic?
How long till you think you'll be appreciated? 

I grinded.

Probably 200k at 1-2 (including pre poker tracker) and 150k at 2-4.

I c-bet a lot, as a default, a lot a lot. I also change things up, and middle pair is a good spot to mix it up. In ssnl, I recommend c-betting and going from there. I c-bet dry flops and wet flops about the same amount: dry flops becuase no one ever gets a piece of them, and wet ones becuase if I want to win the hand, I have to bet the flop becuase no one ever believes you have a hand if you checked the flop behind and it was draw heavy.

I will never fully be appreciated. If I am, probably after I die.

 DO you recommend personal coaching for newbies if they can afford it? If so what affordable coaches do you recommend? 

I do not know general rates, If/when I do get into coaching, I will prob charge 200-250 an hour, I think that's about right. I highly recommend a coach if you have the roll but are struggling to move up. I don't recommend spending an entire roll on coaching. I do recommend getting good poker friends to talk about stuff with. I was lucky enough to meet a good friend at the PCA in 2006 that I've talked poker with for the past year.

I don't know what coaches to recommend, if for some reason you have a decision in mind, feel free to pm me and I will simply say "I respect his posts" or "this guy sucks."

 How do you see the future of online poker? Are the games getting tougher at your stakes? Do you see it getting to the point where you might not find it worthwhile playing? What's your over/under on how much longer you will be playing seriously? 

The games are getting more difficult. However, since guys tilt/spew and play exploitably in general, I feel like I can still beat today's games very well. In fact, the more difficult the games have become, the more I have moved up strangely enough.

I think the future of online poker is doomed. If they continue to get worse at this rate, it'll all be over soon. By over, I mean it'll be all the best of the best playing at the same time. I see some guys who play 5/10 all the time that are regulars that I KNOW have to be losing money. So, if the guys who are regs are losing and or moving down, it's just going to trickle down until it's slow death. For now though, I guess I'll just make what I can and not ask questions. I think the online poker community as a whole really needs a break soon, I just don't know where it's going to come from. Eventually, it just won't be worth playing- I'm actually kind of looking forward to the death of it to be honest, as weird as that sounds. I just want to have time where I don't feel like "If I'm not playing, then I'm losing money."

I hope to be playing seriously and making money for the new several months... then, hopefully I'll be able to just relax and take 6 months off before I turn 21 (December 1st) where I'll have more pressure to play seriously live.

 what adjustments does a winning SSNL need to make in order to be a winning MSNL player?

If you had to describe your personal strategy to win at a no limit hold'em table in 2 sentences, what would you say? 

A winning SSNL player must play a large amount of hands to acquire "reads." Having sick reads (as I have) do not come overnight. I know what guys have becuase I've seen ten thousand guys play the exact same hand in a similar way, and I quantify players into categories.

I play mostly shorthanded, so this will be based upon that:

"Bet a lot because no one ever has anything. Always stay one level ahead of your opponents."

 it seems as if all of the fish have moved to NL and/or tourneys. do you think since the edge of the "good" NL player over the fish is so pronounced, and because the number of decent NL players is steadily increasing, that eventually the fish will move back to limit hold 'em because luck/variance plays a bigger factor and they can lose their money more slowly?

it wasn't more than 10 years ago or so that NL hold 'em was virtually extinct from being spread because of this very reason. of course the poker boom caused by ESPN, the WSOP with NLHE tourney-style, and the internet made the big bet variety soooo popular. after all, everyone wants to be the next Gus Hansen, right?

i've been thinking about this for a while and it may be 2 or 3 or 5 years or whatever, but if someone is looking at NLHE as a career down the road i think it's something to consider. i say this because i am a LHE player and a NL player(almost exclusively live), and i've noticed a ton of winning limit players trying to make the switch. 

People like to say "all in." Think about that for a while.

[ QUOTE ]
..... and I quantify players into categories.

[/ QUOTE ]
 Such as ??? 

Well, it's like this. Live, I'm looking at 23234 different things. I can't name them all, but here are some: This guys chips are neat, so he's tight. I just heard this guy say "but he didn't even protect his hand there." So I know what level that guy is on. I can't exactly explain it... But subconsciously I'm putting this guy into ten categories, so that if I get to the river and he makes a bet, I say "well, he can't have a big hand becuase he checked behind the turn, and I know that he would protect 2pair+, so he must have a one pair hand that went for pot control on the turn and now value on the river, or a bluff becuase the draw missed. I know based on how he's moving slowly that he doesn't want to set me off, so he only likes his hand, he doesn't love it. Based on things he said earlier, I know that he's not good enough to switch it up and induce a bluff check raise here- therefore I can CR bluff this river for sure becuase my image is pretty tight and straightforward."

Online, a read might be "He's standard postflop, probably 8-tabling, playing 18/12 and nothing out of the ordinary. I have no proof that he's capable of tricks, so his range can't be merged here and he must have a monster or air to raise me on the river. He has to have a set here 100% of the time this deep, he's not good enough to try and take me off of an overpair, etc. etc."

95% of players fit into groups. Every once in a while there comes a guy who is just sick postflop and you can't quantify him. Jason Strasser, Bld, Samo, etc. these are guys who you can't just say "are lagtards" or whatever, becuase they'll always be a step ahead of you and pick up a hand when they need it.

 Any hands you want to share that you are proud of? Like a massive bluff you pulled off? A sick call you made? Big pot? 

All of my hands are gone in poker tracker... my friend was out here, he imported a bunch of stuff... anyways, they're all completely lost except the ones I played in the last two days. I have the results of them, but the text of them is [censored] gone... One time I called a 4-bet all in with 44 on a A 8 9 board (or something like that) against 2+2er bruin and was right... If he's got the hand and wants to share it, he can. The biggest pot online I won was a few weeks ago... it was like a 7k'ish pot at 5/10 vs 2+2er hausopher where I made bottom quads and he had a full house, if he wants to share he can post it..

Live, I won a 10k pot with bottom boat playing 10-20 uncapped.. I had about a 20k stack that night in front of me, that was a pretty cool experience.

 You know nothing about my game.

I have a $5000 BR and play 100 NL 6 max at PS right now.

My last 25K hands have stats of:

2.55 bb/100 (PT)
15.4 vpip
11.38 pfr

How do I improve and get my winrate up? (your best guess without knowing my game besides the basic stats)

I have a feeling you will say play more hands, raise more...I have been trying but no idea how to get my PF numbers too much higher than I have them. It might be a fear of playing in pots with "substandard" hands, I am not too sure.

Could you include specific examples of how/where to raise, limp more? 

don't limp. you can call raises behind obv, like mp opens and you have 77 on the button orwhatever. anyways, basically it comes down to this. open TONS of han ds from the CO and button. T9o, K8s, 53s, AXs, you better open all of these from the button, and almost all of them from the CO. HJere's the biggest key: I'd rather have T7s from the button and open than KJo from UTG and open. I'd rather have 56s from the button than AJo from UTG+1. Do you understand me yet? look at your winning rates from CO and button vs the blinds. the differential will be sick, truck fools from the button, your positional advantage is so sick you can't even fathom it.

also, you might have postflop leaks I don't know about. i recommend floating in moderation, raising flops with air, being in general aggro until other people show you strength. however, knmow who you shouldn't fire multiple barrels against (i.e. who is a calling station at the table) and then value bet them to DEATH.

 i'm not even an SSNL player im in the micros but i cannot seem to win, in the long run. i can take my BR from 5 buyins to 15 but no matter what i lose it. i post hands and respond to hands and in general work very hard on my game. i havent play 75K hands yet though of NL...

how long did it take you to become a winner and other misc. info you have for a slight loser with a passion to turn it around. advice etc.? 

i don't know what to tell you... tighten up maybe? pound top pair plus, play a lot of hands, read a lot about them... i can't imagine that the work won't pan out for you. sometimes, it just takes time.

 Not sure if you've already answered this question (haven't read the whole thread yet, will do a bit later)

Why is your WTSD stat so high and it doesn't seem to affect your W$SD (which is very high tbh) especially for that winrate. 

maybe i just guess right a lot? i call a lot on the end with ace high and [censored] and third pair to see if i'm right... i dunno a lot about stats to be honest


How do you play 3K+ hands a day while in school? Seriously..

I remember a couple of weeks ago you, Timex, and I were talking about what ptBB/100 you could attain over 100K hands of 100NL(6) on Stars. So, 8-tabling with no distractions, playing your A-Game, what winrate could you attain?

Redsox or Yankees?

22 or 89s?

Donkaments or Limit HE?

|| Who are the top 3 2+2'ers you have played against consistently at 2/4-5/10 ||

Assuming you were rolled for HSP, could you beat that game? 

I don't know.. I haven't really played that many lately, but when school is slow I've been known to have 5k-10k hands a day sometimes... I just randomly fire up in the evening, sometimes play to get unstuck, sometimes just play to meet a quota..

I could probably win at 12 ptbb/100 hands at 100nl over 100k hands, but it's like how many licks till you get to the center of a tootsie roll pop.. the world will never know.

CHICAGO WHITE SOX. I'm a [censored] huge White Sox fan, huge. I go to opening day every single year (for about the last 8) and I went ao a handful of playoff games two years ago.

89s, are you kidding me? sooo many possibilities.

Donkaments > LHE.

To be honest, even among 2+2ers, there aren't a lot of "thinking" players. Krantz is definitely a thinking player, I think I've done alright against him over maybe just a few hundred or a thousand hands, but he's dangerous becuase he plays loose. Luckychewy is a good thinking player at 2/4- 3/6, he always played very tight aggressive was just really really solid. Same goes for Psier, he's a very taggy 2+2er who I don't think posts too often, but he's been very very solid against me at 2/4 and 3/6.

Of course I could beat High Stakes Poker. The play is [censored] awful. I wrote a post about where we are as MSNL'ers back in the day when ski started a post about how good we are in comparison to Live pros... The fact is, with proper adjustments, the above average MSNL'er is just very, very good at poker. We're among the top 5% in our profession, easily, ahead of a bunch of live pros (assuming you can make the transition to live play).
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 19 year old sophomore in college from the midwest. I started online about a year and a half ago. I had about a 2k roll when Party first opened 3-6 and 5-10 NL, and my friends bugged me to sit shortstacked. I made about 30k in two months that way. Since I knew nothing about variance and little about deepstacked poker, I lost 10k over the summer of 2005. I struggled to get a roll going in Fall and Winter of '05 and won very little at poker (I had cashed most of the money I'd previously won out and put it in investments). I played well for periods of time, but went on swings and didn't keep a proper bankroll and tilted a lot a lot.

Beginning of '06, I went to the Carribean with a friend who won a seat in the PCA. I won 1500 or so playing 2-5 (I got owned by full ring, but some British kids wanted to play short handed one night after the poker room closed and I took them for about 2k). I really got a bankroll going with advice from friends somewhere around March. I 4-tabled 1-2 primarily, and I made a few thousand doing that. My last 6 months of poker look like this: ~3k March, ~3k April, ~2k May, ~4k June, end of July, I move to 2-4 and 6 table, I make ~8k in July, then I go on vacation, and make ~8k the last week of August. I'm up around 15k in September thus far. Thus, my roll is like 19k in Party after cashouts, and 3k in fulltilt, and a few hundred in stars and neteller for donkaments.

At 1-2 and my first 40k hands of 2-4 I played about 32/20 per poker tracker. I was known on the MSNL forums for playing extremely LAG preflop and postflop. I was playing a lot of small pots, but playing too many hands and neglecting position. I've tighted up to ~26/18 (don't know how accurate this is) by folding stuff like QT and 36s UTG, and trying to watch the hands that I call preflop raises with (eliminating two gap SCs and stuff). I've always said that I will win more money the higher stakes I go. My WR is only ~3 at 1-2 and ~3 at 2-4. The reason for this is that I still tilt somewhat, and I just really tend to spew chips because I like to "try" new things, etc. I make too many thin call downs, and just play too loose over periods of time in general.

The reason I'm most hesitant about doing something like this is that I have good friends in poker. I've got a friend that was beating 5-10 at about 3.5 ptbb/100 over 200k hands, but went on a recent breakeven stretch and is moving down to 3-6. He's got donkament scores of 13.5k, 23k, and 36k. He's made about 200k in the past year, but he's a sophomore at a college near me, without many plans to drop out. I have another friend that is up about 60k lifetime, and is playing the same stakes as me. I've got another friend that plays professionally, making a little over 30k a month at 2-4 to 5-10 and 10-20, primarily heads up and some shorthanded.

See, I have lots of poker resources around me. As for me, I was fourth in my class in high school and I've been good at everything I've ever done or put time into. I read these forums like crazy, a few hours a day or whenever I'm just not doing anything. I'm having my best month yet, so maybe I don't really need this, but I wanted to put my name out there just for the hell of it. A lot of whether or not I would want to do something like this depends upon what you want to charge, my level of satisfaction, etc. Also, I have no plans on quitting college, but I have just 13 credit hours and really have no need to put more than a few hours a week into it, along with going to class.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was written in the middle of September. I was breakeven in October, got pissed, played tournaments for November (big mistake, prob lost money, ran awful, spewed too). Decemeber I beat 2/4 on Stars for about 30k, was prob the biggest winners or one of them. I went to the PCA beginning of January, had a backer buy me in full (a few people think very, very highly of my game).

Now, I made about 20k profit in 2007 probably, maybe less actually. I have trouble keeping track of [censored] since I win so much at 5/10 and lose so much when I move up randomly. That is roughly my poker history though.

 1) I play 1/2 and have been making 5bb/100 over 35K hands, what do you think my chances of success at 2/4 would be? (I play a fishier euro site, the games aren't as tough as FTP/PS)

2)My vpip/pfr/af are 24/11/4, what changes do I need to make as I move up? 

1) Your chances are probably good. I found 2/4 to be not too challenging to be honest, and my lifetime WR is higher at 2/4 than 1/2 over big samples. Adjust to the aggression, and you'll be okay. AVOID good regulars on your left... make them prove that they can make position advantage a big deal, but when they do, don't doubt them, just get the [censored] out of the way.

2)You are too passive preflop.. You are most DEFINITELY calling too much out of the blinds... It's hard to play KTs or A5s or even KQo from out of position against a decent player. Essentially, you should probably be 3-betting more from the blinds to a CO or button open. First, their hands don't have to be that strong. Second, if they do call, your advantage to bet first on the flop is HUGE... basically, you're using the reverse implied odds of their hand against them... and that's huge. It doesn't matter how often you hit the flop, it's how often they miss.. Variance will certainly go up, but by 3-betting more you're definitely going to up your winrate (if you do it in the right places, when the y can open light, and with the right hands, preferrably nondominated hands that tend to be the best hand preflop, or suited connectors to mix things up).

 This is the hand:

There wasn't much history. I was running at like 22/18 or something around there, playing kinda aggro, aware of who AEjones was. I dont think he was aware of me.

It's a really crazy hand all the way around. After he called and i saw that he had 33, i asked for his IM, was like OMG WTF?!?!?!?! how can you call!??!?! and i packed it up for that session. 

POKERSTARS GAME #7222253708: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2006/11/29 - 03:00:39 (ET)
Table 'Kalliope' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: MK_Ruthless ($485 in chips)
Seat 2: aejones ($408 in chips)
Seat 3: The Iotola ($1209.65 in chips)
Seat 4: PrinceLuc23 ($451.60 in chips)
Seat 5: no_dow_for_u ($799.10 in chips)
Seat 6: holdemhux ($338 in chips)
no_dow_for_u: posts small blind $2
holdemhux: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PrinceLuc23 [7d 4d]
MK_Ruthless: folds
aejones: raises $8 to $12
The Iotola: folds
PrinceLuc23: calls $12
no_dow_for_u: folds
holdemhux: folds
*** FLOP *** [As 9c 8s]
aejones: bets $20
PrinceLuc23: raises $46 to $66
aejones: raises $102 to $168
PrinceLuc23: raises $271.60 to $439.60 and is all-in
aejones: calls $228 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [As 9c 8s] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [As 9c 8s Ad] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aejones: shows [3c 3d] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
PrinceLuc23: mucks hand
aejones collected $819 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $822 | Rake $3
Board [As 9c 8s Ad Td]
Seat 1: MK_Ruthless folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: aejones showed [3c 3d] and won ($819) with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 3: The Iotola folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: PrinceLuc23 (button) mucked [7d 4d]
Seat 5: no_dow_for_u (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: holdemhux (big blind) folded before Flop

 aejones, wtf is your thought process in that hand? 

I wish I knew sometimes... I guess it was like mostly "feel" although I hate when people say that.. I just thought he would bluff me? I dunno, 90% of people think I'm out of my mind when I say things like that...

bruin, thanks a lot for posting that hand.

here's an unorthodox one i played just recently so i actually have the hh for it.. almost standard, i actually have a thought process on this one

POKERSTARS GAME #8591445316: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($5/$10) - 2007/02/23 - 21:59:56 (ET)
Table 'Giacobini II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: aejones ($1371.50 in chips)
Seat 5: mrlimp ($2363.50 in chips)
aejones: posts small blind $5
mrlimp: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aejones [Kd Jh]
rebeccasback joins the table at seat #3
aejones: raises $20 to $30
mrlimp: raises $70 to $100
aejones: calls $70
*** FLOP *** [4c Js 8c]
Kijmcd joins the table at seat #4
mrlimp: bets $120
aejones: calls $120
*** TURN *** [4c Js 8c] [Td]
mrlimp: bets $240
aejones: calls $240
*** RIVER *** [4c Js 8c Td] [7d]
mrlimp: bets $620
aejones: calls $620
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mrlimp: shows [3d As] (high card Ace)
aejones: shows [Kd Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
aejones collected $2159 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2160 | Rake $1
Board [4c Js 8c Td 7d]
Seat 2: aejones (button) (small blind) showed [Kd Jh] and won ($2159) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 5: mrlimp (big blind) showed [3d As] and lost with high card Ace

 What is your thought process in that hand if you don't mind sharing? 

preflop is nonstandard, i don't remember why i called, i guess he had been 3-betting me marginally light and i was going to make plays at X number of flops.

flop i flop top pair, no reason to turn my hand into a bluff, so i just called.

the turn i still have top pair, i feel liek he'll shut down on a lot of rivers with one pair hands bigger than mine, and that the board is going to get dangerous to bluff at, so i can possibly see this hand down for a reasonable price by just calling, so i do.

on the river, here is the trickiness. i basically have to decide a few things: what level is he on? is he good enough to value bet a one pair hand stronger than mine? is he good enough to value bet two pair or three of a kind on a board with four to a straight? can he have a ten? can i have a ten? i eventually decided that he could NOT value bet one pair hands like QQ (though it would be great to in some spots) since he's not merging his range here, my hand is as good as any bluff catcher, b ecuase i decided that in order to bet that river he had to have a monster or a hand with no showdown value... and i eventually decided that he had a hand with no showdown value, so i called.

 and didnt you donkingly stack off with 1 pair in the pca? 

i got two outered with one to come. my backer was so stupid he didn't even think about how awful i run before he put me in the event, even though i was probably a big favorite at the start. he got in the moeny though, he's decent at poker.

 aejones how much for a lock of your hair?? 

if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Also, I forgot to mention.. in the 2+2ers that give me the most trouble, FoxwoodsFiend is definitely number one.. Dunno how I forgot him, but he's sick and I'm always value betting the worst hand and he actually CRes the river with a good frequency.. he's scary good.


What is a smartLAG?
how do I become one?
what would you do to be able to play on party again? 

A smartLAG is playing a bunch of hands in a smart fashion. That is, you can't just be very loose preflop and open a lot of hands, you have to be willing to pick up tons of pots postflop... It's also staying away from being very spewy, because it's easy to get overaggro.

Becoming one is like becoming a Jedi- it takes intense practice and skill.

To play on Party poker? My left nut.


should I eat the day old unrefrigerated pizza? 

how hungry are you? you know there are starving kids in china... seems like a no brainer to me.

 aejones,

post your royals.

should I want to sex you? 

i don't really know what "post your royals" means, but yea, you probably should want to sex me.

 How much does your thought process during hands involve math?
And what's the deal w/ your second Owen Wilson avatar? 

Very little with math... the only time it'll involve math is like this: "I have to call 200 into 600, and I only have to be right one in three times on the river to show profit in the long run, and I think I'm better than one in thre times." or "I have 9 pure outs, so even if I don't have implied odds, he's bet small enough on the turn so that I must call since I am drawing to the nuts, or I have made a poker 'mistake' and it's unprofitable."

Other than those specific instances, I don't know too much about the math.. I just believe that should roughly know, there are "x" number of unseen cards, and I have "y" number of outs, so if I divide, I get this number, etc.

The Owen Wilson thing stems from this aim conversation:

friend (2:18:38 AM): good job
friend(2:18:52 AM): A+ for your work
me (2:18:52 AM): good job what
friend (2:18:54 AM): in zoolander
friend (2:18:57 AM): was a great movie
me (2:18:59 AM): lollllllllllllll
friend (2:19:05 AM): and you were great in it

This AIM convo was totally random. Basically, the guy just thinks I look (and maybe act, I dunno ask him) like Owen Wilson. In general, I crack a lot of jokes and have a good sense of humor, and I have long blonde'ish colored hair, so who knows. Also, Wedding Crashers is the funniest movie of all time, and it's not close, so that might have something to do with it.

 aejones,

can you post some tips on things to say to people to tilt them?

and how to exploit their tilt optimally? 

The key to tilting people is to never get pissed. Always "kill them with kindness." For instance, say things like "lol" even though whatever happened wasn't funny. If they ask what is funny, say "nothing special, but your game is a classic joke" or something like that. Start specific long and drawn out conversations, but be completely serious. For instance, start one with "Are you related to Jamie Gold?.." Definitely let them know that you aren't taking this as serious as them, it'll mega tilt them even if they don't realize it.

Also, sit on a guys left and 3-bet the [censored] out of them, they will either start four bet shoving with suboptimal hands, or CR'ing flops with air, or just bowing down and shipping you their open raise.

To exploit tilt, you have to wait for a big hand. Generally top pair + is good enough, but if you're deeper, wait for something better. Just know that guys are going to want to gamboool with you, so make sure you have the goods.

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Also, I have some theories.. as far as talent levels in poker and getting better:

Basically, I think that some people can only get so good in poker. .... Poker takes this sick mix of self control and ability that I can't even explain.. Anyways, some people have it and some people don't. That is my theory.

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 OK so it's starting to sink in for me that I am only ever going to be able to get so good at poker - and unless at some point I run into a sick heater I am never going to make it into the top bracket of playing poker.

I've played a couple of years - have a good grasp of the basics but seem to be getting nowhere fast - I took a break recently and studied hard away from teh tables and since I got back to them I think my game is much better than it was.

People tho value success differently - and for me if I can can get to 200NL and beat that game consistently and make $100/hr+ I'll be very very happy with my poker.

Of course I'd like to get to 5/10 + and be a winner at those games but realistically my goal this year is to get to about $100/hr - who knows maybe something will "click" this year and I'll really start to understand this game I play and get inside peoples heads more and stuff.

aba said in his well thread that a trained monkey could beat 5/10NL.

In your guesstimation what level can a dedicated hard working player of average intelligence who works and studies and all that stuff get to and consistently win at playing poker if they don't seem to have much of this"inate ability" - i.e. how far can Joe "trained monkey" Average go if he puts the work in? 

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Even if you don't have a knack for poker, you should be able to beat 2/4 at least (probably even be a slight winner at 3/6 and 5/10) by just being super duper standard, having no special tricks or super reads where you get it in with ace high, but you know a few special lines to take with big hands, and you've memorized spots to take pots away from certain players. If you just pick up these tricks by reading and studying NLHE in general, then you can certainly do okay. I can't see a trained monkey beating 5/10 anymore, but he could probably be only a slight loser, and he could have CRUSHED 5/10 on Party one year ago. I could have CRUSHED 5/10 on Party one year ago; I know the crowd that beat it, and it the game have evolved such a sick amount in one year, that there were probably only a handful of scary regulars and a bunch of substandard average boring regulars that beat 5/10 on Party good.. this is pretty much common knowledge. Aba may not have played in the 5/10 game on Stars lately... at certain times, it might even be marginally difficult for him to beat, though he really is sick good at poker obviously and I'm sure he'd be one of, if not, the biggest winner.

I agree with you about valuing success differently as well- I really want to be the best. I can't sit and grind becuase the money is only of moderate importance to me. One day, when the games are tougher, I want to get out of school, hopefully get a serious roll together, and play a lot of poker... I want to be known as one of the best, I want people to say this kid is just sick... So, maybe that will happen, maybe it won't, but I try to be the best at everything I have an opportunity to partake in.

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since he's not merging his range here

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 wtf is "merging your range" ? - how do you do it and why is it necessary at MSNL?

lastly there was a thread recently in uNL where someone claimed "noone could possibly beat 25NL for 10PTBB/100 - I can't do it - and none of the datamined stats of people I see playing can do it therefore it is impossible - someone show me a 50K had sample with 10PTBB/100 or I know I'm right"

I am pretty convinced that any of the MSNL regs and a good chunk of SSNL regs could smash 10PTBB/100 at these very basic games but obv it would never be worth the time it would take for them to study those games for a little while before picking the awful predictable regs there to bits and then play 50K hands to prove the point.

If you had to - what kind of winrate do you think is realistically possible at 25NL over a 50K sample for you assuming you ran normally - and how big would the prop bet need to before you were interested in actually doing it?

and thanks for sharing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Merging Ranges is somewhat of an advanced theory. Basically, it has to do with what you'll bet in a given situation. So.. let's take the river, where you can value bet thin.

(before I write this, I want you guys to know that sometime soon hopefully I'm going to make a sick long post in MSNL about merging ranges, so keep an eye out for that it's been a long time in the making I just haven't gotten all my thoughts together)

We'll use this Strasser hand as an example. I dont' have the link, but he was playing Phil Ivey heads up 300/600 I think. Basically, the board came K Q 8 3 4 or something, and Strassa fired the river (I think he bet all three streets) with QJ. So, he had second pair second kicker, and he bet the river from position when he could have checked behind. Some people say "WTF awful," but they're basically wrong becuase Strassa is merging his range. In HU, ace high and small pairs are frequently the nuts. So basically, if Ivey thinks Strassa is bluffing (there was a whiffed straight and maybe flush draw out there), then Ivey will call with what he percieves to be all bluff catchers. Those hands are like 8x, pairs between 99-JJ, maybe AJ high, 55, or a bunch of random little pairs. Strassa's hand of 2P2K is ahead of what he percieves Ivey's range is to CC two streets- so he bets the river. In a vacuum, Ivey held Kx, for top pair no kicker, and he quickly called Strassa. So in this instance, it didn't work, he was value betting the worst hand, but part of merging your range is value betting the worst hand at times. Basically, when people get to the river, they're so happy to check behind hands like even top pair sometimes, and that is generally not good.

Your range looks like this |___________________| So, Most people will bet this much of their range |___ (check behind) _____| That is, they will bet the worst 10% of their hands (missed draws, with NO showdown value) and the best 15% (top pair top kicker, two pairs, trips, etc.) Now, if people percieve you as a bluffer (in a sense, everyone wants to have an aggressive image, people always think I'm bluffing) then you want to merge your range so that you are betting MUCH more of your made hands (like second pair, soemtimes, or the bad end of a straight when people assume you'll only bet the nuts or air becuase it's a good board to bluff at) So, you want your range of hands to bet to look like this |_____ (check behind) __________| If I'm betting more of the hands at the top end of my spectrum (range) then I'm making people's decisions on the river MUCH more difficult.

For example, that KJ hand I posted? Well, if he's good, he knows my hand is defined often (but not always, I can have a ten like JT or something) as a one pair hand trying to get to showdown. Therefore, he should probably bet AA-QQ for value, he should also bet a hand like 89 for two pair for value. This is somewhat advanced (maybe) for some of you guys, because players that you play against will often be scared to death of four to a straight boards, etc. People up higher just look at them as great boards to bluff at a lot of the times. So if this guy was good enough to bet AA on this river, a strong one pair hand, I'd be [censored]. But since I already established that I didn't think he could bet one pair hands like AA in his range, I can more comfortably call becuase the hands that he bets with look more like this |__________ (check behind) ___| where the hands at the left side are bluffs, a very high % of the time, and the hands at the right side are only his very strongest made hands.

Hope that helps, I like the way I wrote that out I think, might be a little confusing.

 I could smash 25NL for 15ptbb/100 so god knows what a good player would beat it for 

Yea I'm pretty sure this is true, dunno what that guy was talking about. I'd be winning so many hands without going to showdown and there'd be so many spots where I could get my image working and value bet marginal hands.

Also, in regards to the merging of ranges, I played a hand the other day where a guy bet KQ on a K 2 3 5 6 board, and I called like 350 on the river with A5 like a donk.. he really owned me there, made a great value bet. Basically, he merged his range fantastically on the river and I told him he owned me.

Also, more importantly I think the flop is one spot where you have to merge your range the most, but I'll talk about that in my post if I get around to it. The turn is probably the least important spot to merge it... but it gets more important that higher you go.

Back in the day people could beat 10/20 without any knowledge of really being concerned about merging their range, but nowadays it's going to get more important... it gets much more important the higher levels that you go.

Also let it be known that it's tough to value bet thin vs really good players becuase really good players know how to CR the river (even at 5-10 people don't do it enough) with the proper frequency. But when people don't, at 2/4 and below for sure, value betting thin is the rage.
Here's a link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...art=1&vc=1) to a thread where I talk about merging ranges a little bit... I make a post or two in there that you guys might really find interesting.

 What pokertracker set up do you use (I'm talking HUD here). Can you offer me any advice for 12 tabling? I have the hand speed. 

I have Poker Tracker and PAHUD, which I use VPIP/PFR/AF/hands, but to be honest, I put little to no stock in their AF. Basically, I use these stats to know general opening ranges which factor into their hand spectrum on later streets in the hand.

If you are going to play many tables, you will likely use these stats as guides to make reads. This is good, in general, if you learn how to use them properly (many people will use WTSD as well, and while I could basically figure out how to use it, I've always been to lazy to change my PAHUD). However, be very careful that you will be using preflop reads to make postflop decisions. When I'm playing live or playing fewer tables, I'm caring not at all about preflop stuff... I'm caring about "I saw him CR the river with air 500 hands ago, what does he expect me to do to it this time? Does he know that I remembered that, or is he playing too many tables? Does he fear me, does he know who I am?"

Just learn to differentiate between "This guy is 20/15" and "this guy is a postflop nit" or "this guy tries to win every hand" do you see?

 Any advice on extracting more value out your opponents? I have been struggling to beat SSNL lately. 

You just have to keep putting a guy on a hand preflop, then postflop. Know what he's check calling you down with. Know if you can rep a missed draw. Know if he's thinking about those things. And then, when you "think" you have the best hand, bet it. People don't check raise the river enough, so sometimes if you think you can get 1/2 or 1/3 pot out of second pair, just [censored] do it- unless you think the player is tricky enough to CR the river as a bluff, or just straight raise the river as a bluff, etc.

 AE JONES, thanks for doing this. Can you give examples of some of the archives that helped your game,,include posters names or dates posted if possible 

Anything by Samo is really good, and not just because of his posting style, but because people generally argue with him and it creates good discussion and proves that there can be two amazing players arguing a point where they just do things completely differently... I'll dig up some of my favorites a little bit later and post a few that I still look back on today.

 jonesie,
what kind of hands do you play from the blinds? which types are you calling, reraising pf? i think i might fold to steals too much. thanks. 

Well... basically, I'm thinking about a lot postflop when I think about what to do preflop. That is, if I have KJs in the BB, and the button raises, I will look at what he does preflop. If he likes to steal (that is, his raising range on the button should be like and big cards, any pairs, any two suited) then I will certainly not fold. My options are now two things: I can't get squeezed since I'm in the bb and last to act, so I will sometimes reraise since I'm ahead of his range and my c-bet will smash his reverse implied odds in case he has a marginal hand (say, one that can just call the 3-bet and hit X% of flops). I will also sometimes call, but when I do, it is with intention of usually check calling flops where I flop one pair, check raising flops where I flop a big draw or a twopair+, and check raising a TON of blank flops, often moderately dry ones, but this is compeltely dependent on whether or not my opponent can float my flop check raise or if he's straightforward... So I'll 3-bet more often than not. Same goes with hands like 66, AQo, etc.

 I made a very poorly designed questionaire on 3betting from the blinds.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=1#Post9321274

Any advice you could give as to what to look for and what to consider when 3betting from the blinds. How different should my range be from SB and BB with regards to hands I should 3bet with? 

It looks like you're thinking about a lot of the right things.

From the BB when a button opens and the sb calls, I squeeze with a very wide range, often there is a lot of dead money there preflop.

With regards to sb-bb hands, You should call less from the sb because if the bb calls, it's another person you're out of postion on, and if the bb is capable of squeezing, you'll often be throwing away money by just calling from the sb.

I 3-bet from them with relatively the same frequency, IF the bb isn't very tricky and aggro and capable of knowing that my sb 3-betting range is light and so is the button open, therefore he can shove a bunch of hands profitably from the bb.

Just make sure that you 3-bet hands that are ahead of ranges, rarely hands like QJo that are easily dominated when called, and mix in hands that are deceptive like 56s. Do those things and get a lot of hands of experience and you will figure out this 3-betting from blinds thing really fast.


were you asked to do this or did you want to be a face? 

I had some free time and I know some people had done these before with similar reputations as me perhaps. Also, I don't mind sharing information and it is well known that I am, in fact, an attention whore. I don't deny these facts, but we all have our crosses to bear.

 What do you do with slightly marginal hand in reraised pots oop?
example: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD 

In that hand, I would definitely be felting after I checked the flop. However, I would bet the flop, try to induce action from 55-JJ since there is such a large difference between the top card on the board and the second card on the board.

Since a 14/10 player jacked up the pot vs a limper though, unless I thought he was uber spewy in 3-bet pots, I would probably not 3-bet even preflop, I would call and play the hand passively or just fold preflop. There is a big different in raising ranges of limpers specifically of a guy who is 20/16 and a guy who is 14/10, important to remember that. I try not to give guys action who I deem nits.

 aejones,

What do you think are some common weaknesses among mid stakes (lower than 10/20) players? How does your style build to exploit them? 

Honestly, everyone has entirely different weaknesses. I really think the biggest weakness is guys just giving up on hands and losing small pots. There are so many spots where people just let me win small pots on the flop and turn that occurs at primarily 2/4 and 3/6; but even a little bit with the guys playing many tables at 5/10. There are a lot of very standard regs, and in general I know people who won't give up small pots without a fight. That is, so often two people completely miss in hold'em, especially short handed. That is why things like the Yeti theorem were developed- no one ever has a [censored] hand.

In short, I think a lot of the standard multi tablers give up small pots too easy; myself included. I like to splash around and float a lot and play a lot of hands in general, because I think playing more hands, whether specifically to build my image or just becuase I have an advantage over a guy in a certain spot, is more profitable to me. Now, playing more hands at 5/10 nowadays is running at like 23/18 or so, whereas at lower stakes I used to win running at 28/20+, so my style definitely has had to change preflop; it's a lot harder to play 57s OOP against someone who is decent.

I feel like I could answer this question better though about weaknesses, if I think of anything I'll write it.


aejones, why do people in MTT forum hate u? 

Well, here's the deal. They can't handle the truth. Basically, I have a lot of poker discussions with my friends, and we've come up with the conclussion that Tournament players just aren't that good. Basically, we have a lot of opinions and I'll share them all here:

First off, I tried playing tournaments in November because I was sick of cash and grinding. I played every tournament for a while, and really didn't do anything special. I think I had about a dozen final tables, mostly on Full Tilt and UB (where I play as "HatesPoker"). Anyways, my biggest score was 14k, but aside from that I had a bunch of like 1500-3000 scores, all supremely dissapointing. I kept getting [censored] at final tables, and running below average in my estimation. Tournaments just kept coming down to coinflips for me.. and I kept losing them. So, I was frustrated. In one month, I improved immensely, I made one decent post in the MTT forum that generated decent discussion, but in general I quit tournaments feeling very frustrated that I couldn't have enough impact on that outcome.

I recognize that multi table tournaments take skill, and a different skill set for sure than cash games. However, you could become a top flight multi table tournament player in month, whereas I think it would take 6 months to achieve similar relative skill in cash games. So why wouldn't you want to be a MTT player? Why wouldn't I? Well, the variance is sick, and the frustration is high. Basically, you can have a sick week and win 5 figures multiple days, and then go two weeks without a score. If you drag that out, it ends up being frustrating and a lot of losing. In general, playing MTTs is less stressful than cash becuase I can sit around for along time clicking buttons and playing as a very high level in early and some mid stages, whereas with cash I might lose a stack if I'm not paying attention.

Well, I've made my feelings about that known.. An MTT person once told me I was down like 40 thousand dollars playing Multis on Stars.. and that very well might be true, I have no idea. It kind of cracks me up if in fact it us true. Well, they all think I'm terrible at poker there because I am pretty arrogant and I've told them these findings about MTTs.

Another reason they don't like me is becuase I've said that a lot of players that are percieved as good as actually bad. I've called out a lot of TV pros or highly ranked online players as garbage... That's the funny thing about poker, sometimes the long run never comes. That is, it is possible to run extremely hot for an extended period of time, and then fall off the face of the earth if you aren't a fantastic poker player. Well, they hated the idea of some mid stakes cash game player saying things that reflected negatively upon "their own." And to their credit, they are somewhat of a tight nit group. Really, I think quite a few of them are probably pretty good at poker; I just happen to call out that some are definitely not, and they hate me for it. I guess that's the gist of it.. there are probably other things as well. 95% of what I say is joking around towards them anyways... I'm glad that they have a chance to make a bunch of money without having to learn the finer points of deepstacked poker. In fact, a good deal of what I say is probably jealously that some of them have made more money than me without the level of hand analysis, per say.

Oh well, I don't lose sleep over it and I'm sure they don't either. Somewhere down the road I'll probably meet some or most of them and we'll sweep all of it under the rug.


aejones,

Would you shoot against me in a 3 point contest for $10k? 

$5k probably. I could likely get backers that would put up a large amount of money for me. I have a friend who plays college basketball that won't play me in HORSE for money. He quit me after I beat him a few times for a few hundred bucks a piece.


those range merging posts are sick good stuff 

thanks, i've spent many college lectures and late night staring at the ceiling thinking about it

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1. Did you personally coin the term SmartLAG?

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As far as I know, yes.

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2. Say I start opening KTs even 56s in EP. What do I have to do to make this profitable (if we include indirect effect on metagame)? Is C-betting most HU flops and then giving up to resistance enough? Do we need to start firing a lot of second barrels / checkraising in the right spots to breakeven? Basically are sick reads/moves a pre-requisite for opening up our EP raising range, or is it still profitable in general to do this with just solid play and no amazing reads.

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C-bet quite a bit at most boards, hit or miss. You can't always give up to resistance, you have to figure out what kind of range he's resisting you with, pick marginal strength hands or draws to float or call down with. You definitely need to figure out spots where to fire second barrels (draw heavy boards where you have some showdown value in my estimation is my favorite spot), also CR'ing the turn with air is TONS of fun, high variance, but profitable. What you need to gather, is that we do NOT have to show a PROFIT with KTs from MP, or 56s. What happens, is that by opening these hands and playing more pots, is that we get MORE profit and action from our HUGE hands, so look at your profit with AA jump since you're not a nit anymore.

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3. Ditto for opening up our 3-bet ranges. Is a strong C-bet then c/f to resistance all the "ammunition" we need to start opening up our range beyond AK/JJ+? Do you take Different typical lines IP and OOP? How often are you firing second barrels, C/R or CRAI as a bluff?

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I'd rather 3-bet from oop because I get the initiative on the flop. IP, I call more because I can float and dick around on different flops. For quite a while, you'll be just fine firing one c-bet in my estimation. However, then you have to start firing second barrels on draw heavy boards and stuff to show more profit, and picking the right spots to do that in. I fire second barrels more often than I CRAI as a bluff, but I do both with some frequency. I tend to know who likes to float me, so I CR the turn with more draws against them. I rarely do things as pure bluffs, but might do something on a J 9 5 4 board with KQ becuase I have overs + gutshot.
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4. With sub-prime hands on the button, what do you do more of?
a) Call with the intention to float / CR often if you miss
b) 3-bet with the intention to C-bet

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Call and float much more from position.
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5. You raised UTG+1 with 22 and are called by button. What is the least scary flop you check/fold versus a 22/18? 40/10?

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I almost never CF flops here with 22. I have way too much FE from raising UTG vs most guys, I will fire two barrels vs the 40/10 on draw heavy boards, and sometimes CR with air vs the TAG if he calls me, depends on a lot of things related to postflop.

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6. Really really juicy party game. A 70/10 drooler station and a couple of 50/10s. Approximately what kind of preflop game you would play at this table (i.e. your rough vpip/pfr)? Do you ever bother 3-betting/floating/CRing the loose players, or do you just tighten up considerably and value bet the crap out of them?

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I tighten up from OOP with hands that make second best hands, like QTo, but I still play a lot of hands preflop, especially from position, and tighten up postflop and value bet them to hell. I take floating out of my game essentially, and just kind of lay back and nutset when the real money goes in.

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7. Zoolander is my favourite comedy by miles. What is your favourite line/s?
(mine: "There was this moment last night when she was sandwiched between the Maori tribesman and the Finnish dwarves, where I thought to myself, 'Wow, I could really spend the rest of my life with that woman'" 

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My favorite comedy is Wedding Crashers, but Zoolander is very funny. I don't really have a specific favorite part, I've probably only seen it 3 times. I have friends that really think I look like Owen Wilson though, so whatever.

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 so, like, have you not had a royal flush or something? i demand a response 

Sorry, but I lost all my hands in my Poker Tracker database becuase my friend messed it up... I only have the results of them. I've had a few, but I can't remember any instances where I won a big pot with one. Sorry.

I think I outdrew someone onetime with one... I think I got all in with KQs on an AsKoTs board to a set and hit the royal, but I don't have that hh.

 You seem to have great, innate, poker instincts. So, how much better of reads do you make in live play vs. online? 

Live, I fear no one. I feel like being able to look at someone is a huge advantage. I have quite a big of experience live, so I'm very comfortable. Also, playing only one hand at a time, I get to think about hands and use a thought process very slowly. I get plenty of time to weed out what may or may not be true, what he wants me to see and what he doesn't want me to see, and if he's acting or not. Live, I routinely check call a few streets with ace high.

 You are playing lower limits like 1/2 where there are plenty of tables... you are datamining the 15 tables for an hour before you sit down... how do you decided what 4 tables to sit at, what are you looking at for info? 

Despite the fact that I play a lot of hands and can take advantage of tight players, I'm still looking for tables that go to more flops, have high VPIPs, since I really want to mix it up with people playing a lot of hands.

 Where do you see yourself 3 years from now?

5? 10? 

That's a good question.

I just declared my major as business. I don't really want to do anything in business necessarily, but I like the competition in most industries, and I could probably manage well or do something with advertising because I'm creative. Thing is, none of that really interests me, right now I'm struggling to put the time into my classes, and everything bores me. I still do okay in school I suppose, but I have to pick it up this semester. The other things I would like to do, including coach at some level of basketball, unfortunately do not pay enough money for me to pursue them. Sure, it'd be great to be a high school teacher and a basketball coach, but I have no idea what kind of income I can rely upon from poker in the next few years, so I can't give a definite answer..

I will take enough shots, hopefully, to have a 6-figure score in a poker tournament in the next 5 years. I definitely want to be married eventually, family life and such is probably the ultimate goal.

 Jones are you making more at 5/10 than you were at 3/6? What kind of sample size are we talking? Oh and sorry if it's been asked, but how many tables do you play? 

Yea, my 5/10 WR over about 40k hands has been better than any other stakes I've played. I have some screen shots posted earlier in this well of my last two months or so, you might want to look them up. With 5/10 on Stars, there usually aren't 8 good tables, but I'm playing anywhere between 6 and 8, I don't have the screen capacity to play more than 8 really, so I couldn't hardcore grind if I wanted to (and I definitely don't want to).

 thanks for the well. how long to plan on playing poker professionally? any timeline? do you have any other plans/ideas for what else you're going to do during the year(s) you play professionally (eg buy a house or making someother sort of investment)? 

Well, I'm in school right now. I just got word that I'm going to be skipping a few classes and going to the WPT Dortmund.. so that should be fun. Basically, the tournament circuit is hugely +EV because there are some baaad players.

I guess I'd really like to make plenty of money though, enough so that if I ever did get a real job, I would be able to do something that I really liked, not something that I needed to make a lot of money with. I just bought a car with cash last summer, for a little under 10k used. So, I'm trying to get everything squared away and paid off, I don't want to have any outstanding debts, that's for sure.

As long as I'm young and have money though, I just want to have a [censored] good time, that's the plan.

 I've been thinking about indentifying when TAGs have a weakish onepair hand that can't stand a river check-raise. What do you think to the two hands I posted <a href="http:

dirtylobster · #2 11-25-2007, 10:04 AM

Nice work, Bubaloo. Could you include the original date of the well?

the machine · #3 11-25-2007, 11:00 AM

awesome man, ship ship

bubaloo · #4 11-25-2007, 11:16 AM

just noticed that it got cut off at the end, there is more but its gonna be split up.

 I've been thinking about indentifying when TAGs have a weakish onepair hand that can't stand a river check-raise. What do you think to the two hands I posted http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post9327231? How is my thought process in general? 

OK well I only saw one hand that you posted in the OP, I'll comment on it.

In general, the line of thinking that you're taking (with or without knowing it, perhaps) is: "No hand that bets the river for value after checking behind the turn for pot control and withstand a river check raise."

The problem with that in this hand here, is that the turn paired the board, and he could definitely get tricky to try and check behind a boat to string along anything you have to try and catch up.

An ideal situation to try this is: raise from CO, you call in bb. Flop is K J 6, two clubs. You CC 2/3 of the pot. Turn is 8, you check, villian checks behind. River is 5, you check, he bets 2/3 for value: here, the 5 is unlikely to make him two pair, so he's almost always got AK or KQ, assumedly. You can CR here as a bluff profitably in my estimation against guys who can find folds... but not great thinking players. Basically, it's a spot where I LOVE to play the nuts very slow like this (I'm more likely to do it on drier boards.. I have 77 on Q 7 2 flop... I will often check three streets, as risky as it sounds, becuase i LOVE to CR the river.

Basically, you need to know that you're a level ahead of him to make a play like this, and in order to please Shania (she's so fickle) you need to make sure you do this with the nuts as well, or at least a strong hand (i.e., on the board I said, I'd almost always CR the river if I made two pair somewhere.. I'd also CR the river as a bluff, somewhere Sklansky outlies where it's good to CR the river as a bluff, and not good to lead the river as a bluff.. he's got great general concepts behind it).

Also, in the hand you showed me, make it 120 instead of 100, you have much more FE.

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nice well

1. how do you handle boredom while playing online?

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If I have less than 8 tables open, I usually am talking to people on aim (very bad idea) and I've got music on. Sometimes, when doing only 5 tables or so, I browse 2+2, but I highly recommend against it.

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2. do you think cheating is a threat to poker in general (online/offline both)?

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Absolutely. I mean, I remember at the PCA two years ago I walked by a back room and saw some name pros and major online guys playing like 1-2 PLO full ring, seriously sitting there on three laptops going... "You minraise it, and we'll get everyone to call becuase they never fold, and I'll shove with the nuts when it gets back around to me. It's perfect!" That is a very small scale level, but if that can be done, then it can be done on a more serious level. Look at what someone like Zee Justin did unexpectedly, some people really are ignorant to the rules, or just like to bend them a lot.
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3. will 100nl always be this easy?

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Yes. The reason is this: No one from higher stakes will ever come down. That is, I don't care if I could grind 10 tables of 100NL, I could never stomach it. It might make me 50 dollars an hour, which is a sick hourly rate at a job in "real life," but I would have to play tons of hours and I would be very unfulfilled and probably have trouble playing my A game. I think a lot of people feel the same way, plus, many have made plenty of money and would rather play higher stakes live than lower stakes online. For most poker players, it has to hurt to lose, and a random 50 bb pot would just not phase me at 100NL.
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4. and how do you recommend a SSNL player should study? any methods, tips, tricks would be nice to hear. I sturggle with even the idea of studying poker. The farthest ive taken it has been to pick up a few books, and reply to a post on 2p2 here and there. 

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Studying became a disease to me. There was a 6 month period where I couldn't go without 2+2 for any second of the day... whenever there was downtime, I was looking at evferything. I literally never missed a post in MSNL or HSNL for several months. I wanted to reply to everything. I wanted to give my opinion. Even if I was shot down, I then wanted to argue and hear why. Having people tell me I am wrong has been huge for my learning process. I've read all the basic books, Theory of Poker, anything else anyone said was any good, Super System, Caro's Tells... probably about a dozen of them.

You have to have a drive to learn and be the best if you really want to get better. But you can't fabricate something like that, if it doesn't exist, just try to stay consistent and win as much money as you can, nothing else you can really do.

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 How important do you think your preflop game is or just preflop in general? How big of a hit in winrate if any do you expect if you had to play with a vpip < 20? < 15? 

Well, I'd say that if I tightened up, but I still had the same aejones image, I would probably still get a lot of action. I would still play the same way postflop, so... I'm not really sure. One time, I had a 18/15 image because I was like 9 tabling 1-2 a few months ago, and it was SO BORING that I had to kill myself, I was folding KJs UTG and small suited connectors that I like to open. I really have NO idea what exactly it would do for my winrate, it might up it? who knows.

 What are your typical 3 bet sizes in and out of position, and why? 

My typical 3-bet sizes are actually fairly small. At 5/10, I raise 30 to 90 in position, 30 to 100 OOP, 35 to 110 either way, 40 to 120 or 130, and sometimes 141 depending on where the raise comes from. At 2/4, it was 12 to 40, 12 to 52 with one caller, sometimes a little more on obvious squeezes, etc. I make it more from oop than in positon, but I think anyone that is 3-betting 4 times the size of the open raise with no callers is really making a mistake. Smaller raises accomplish the same thing in my estimation, though you have to cut down on implied odds to a point, so you can't make them too small.

Recently I've been raising to things like 2.5x from position to iso vs a light opener, but I won't do this vs someone who likes to 4-bet; I'll only do it to gain initiative and usually when we're well over 100bbs deep (~150 I guess). The small 3-bet sizing can be effective because it can often do the same thing that larger 3-bet sizing would do, and less risk, etc.

Also, I make my c-bets in 3-bet pots about 60% of the pot typically, I very much dislike betting the pot. I'll bet more on draw heavy boards though obviously, and less on dry boards. I have always felt like the more room you have to manuever, the better and trickier you can play.

 I've always considered experimenting with CR'ing thin river value bets (obviously vs thinking players), but i don't know how profitable this is at 200NL...as people have to REALLY believe you before they'll fold. Do you have any HH's where you CR thin river vb's as a bluff? 

Unfortunately, all the hands in my database got wiped, and I only have the results of them, no text of actual hands. I don't think I've ever posted a river check raise bluff on 2+2.. actually I think I did once, but I played the hand awfully, and it would be a bad example.

If I find something, I'll post it here ASAP.

 Do you think I am a bad poker player? 

I think it would be nearly impossible for you to trick Lee Jones for so long. You have to be at least decent, right?

 2 questions homie
1) UTG+1 (24/20 type lagtag) opens, everyone folds, you're on the button
whats your calling range w/ no metagame

2) have you ever played against me? if so, how'd it go/hows my game 

1) Traditionally, with no history, my calling range is like... 54s+, KJs+, 22-JJ, AQo. I'll usually 3-bet QQ+ and AKo, sometimes tens and jacks, and 20% of the time I have random... maybe a hand like 53s or something that shouldn't be in my calling range but I think I can profitably 3-bet with.

2) I don't think we've ever played together.. have we? Unless you have a different name on poker sites that I don't know about, I don't think we have many/any hands together.

 AEJones, thx for doing this, lots of good stuff in here.

RE: MTTC. I think maybe your conclusions could be better worded as "MTTs take less overall skill to beat" than "MTT players have less overall skill" 

Probably.

 Also, ive been receiving coaching from pasterbator for a while. Assuming hes passed on his approach to the game and thought processes effectively, up to what level do you think he can teach me to beat the game? (also assume my intelligence is not a factor) Thoughts on his game in general? 

I actually have no experience with coaching (yet) though I'd like to get into it. The problems I see with coaching is similar to Siddhartha. If you've read the book Siddhartha, it's basically someone who goes searching for himself... Well, he finds that you can't find yourself in teachings, you have to experience it for yourself. Nothing that anyone has written can give you the experience needed to kill poker games. My point is basically that people can't instill 100 thousand hands of 6m poker into you, you'll have to do a good deal of experiencing it on your own...

However, someone like Pasterbator who can seemingly beat just about any midstakes level, can help you in a ton of spots that it would have taken you forever to learn. I have no idea about your poker past, but in due time (probably a short amount, assuming you have some history at some poker level) I can't see how he couldn't turn you into a winner at 2/4, for sure. Once you win at 2/4, 3/6 is really not that big of a jump. Anything in midstakes from 2/4-5/10 nowadays is really almost interchangeable. From my experience, people at 5/10 make less blatant mistakes than at the lower levels. However, frequently the same players play anywhere from 2/4 to 5/10, so you get a similar skill level everywhere in there... with less pure fish the higher you go.

Pasterbator has always [censored] killed me. I've been a spew monkey against him for some reason, and he's always picked me off becuase he's run extraordinarily [censored] hot. I haven't played much with him on Stars, but we played quite a bit together and Party and moved through cash game ranks at about the same pace. I think he plays very well in general. His preflop game has always been better than mine, and I know he's got the balls to pull the trigger a bunch of times both preflop and postflop. From some HHs I've seen of his on 2+2, I gather that he might be a bit spewy at times, but is an overall aggressive winner.

 My poker backround:

I switched to NL a couple of months ago after playing first limit and then sng's. I have close to 100 000 hands in, mostly at NL100 and my stats are super nitty, like 13/7, loosening up a bit lately but still only 15/8 or so. My win rate is about 3.5 PTBB/100. I was a small loser over 20 000 or so at NL200 so I am staying away from that for now. My biggest weaknesses as far as I can tell are getting stacked with overpairs especially AA and KK when villains hit sets and perhaps the fact that I bluff the river less than 1% of the time.

Things that I have been doing more that I feel have helped lately, 3-betting more often, opening/raising more hands from button and CO, playing no more than 6 tables, 8 seems to be too much for me.

Any advice for me? How can I improve to at least 5 PTBB/100 and move up to NL200? I know this is kind of vague but you have been so awesome in this well, I thought I'd throw this at ya.

And I mean it, totally awesome well, thankyou for doing this. 

You need to open up your game preflop. Anyone who is paying attention won't pay you off with anything other than sets. They're probably folding tens on a 7 high board to your kings, thats why you only feel like you're getting action from hands better than yours.

My advice is to stay fairly tight and straightforward, don't get out of your comfort zone just yet. However, start 3-betting slightly more preflop, and c-betting flops (this will use your perceived tightness to your advantage). Open raise more hands from the CO button (suited connectors, etc) and then c-bet them. This is another way that will use your image to your advantage. Remember though, don't get aggro on later streets against guys who are just not paying attention. If you're going to use your image to your advantage, do it against people who are paying attention and have you labeled as a nit.

Remember these three things: Position, position, and position.

If you're going to start calling raises in position with hands like KJs to CO opens or MP opens (guys who open light) you can now start floating some flops. Once you call, these guys will take you for a monster if they pay attention to the way that you play. So, my advice is to stay straightforward and pick up a trick or two here or there to throw off the regulars and use it to your advantage. Against donks, don't worry about loosening up, concentrate on value betting them to death. There are guys at higher stakes that play like 12/9 preflop but still are winners becuase they play well postflop and becuase they absolutely crush the donks with value. Staying at 6 tables is a good idea to, if you're going to open up your game, concentrate on it.

 Can you explain reverse implied odds please, i read about it but i just don't seem to understand it fully. 

My understanding of reverse implied odds is basically that people don't make a hand very often (with their hole cards and the board), and when they do, it is likely to be obvious and the aggressor does not have to pay them off.

For example, AQ is known to be a hand that is scarred with reverse implied odds because if you hit your ace in a big pot, you're likely to get it in dominated vs AK, and if you hit your Q, smaller pairs like TT aren't as likely to pay you off.

So, when you 3-bet with hand XX and villian calls, the flop is A B C, you bet, you have the initiative, and you take it down very often. When he does react and play back at you, his hand will often be obvious (that is, he calls your 3-bet and the flop is A 8 4 and he jumps into action, he will have ace king very often, etc.). Some of the reverse implied odds that you have can be nullified by bluffing a certain percentage of flops. So if you've got AQ and you call a 3-bet from position, the 3-bettor bets an 8 high flop and you shove, you'll be representing a hand like JJ, and not AQ, so your bluff value can make up by some of the money you lose with the reverse implied odds of the hand.

I think I explained it kind of poorly, but I feel like in my head I understand it.

 ugly and rich or poor and good looking? 

Well, you'd have to define the levels of each.

However, in general I'm taking poor and good looking, and it's not that close. My stipulation is that I still have my personality... because to me, that matters so much more than looks or money.

Witty humor FTW

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aejones,

Would you shoot against me in a 3 point contest for $10k? 

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$5k probably. I could likely get backers that would put up a large amount of money for me. I have a friend who plays college basketball that won't play me in HORSE for money. He quit me after I beat him a few times for a few hundred bucks a piece.

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How much you think your backers would put up? I have someone I would love for someone to shoot against if there was enough money up. There was a thread a few days ago about a guy on this boards who said he could take anyone shooting, but backed off pretty quick once money props were offered. We should round up some sick shooters and have a meetup in Vegas or somethin with bankrolls riding on our shooters [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Tried to PM you bout that other thread the other day but your PM box was full.

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I don't know to be honest, we'll see. I'll have to get back into better shooting shape than I am, but I'd definitely be up for something like that in the future.

 Very, very good well, I've really enjoyed reading it the last few days.

Could you expand a little on what you've said both about playing from position and oop? (perhaps post a couple of hands if you have any in what's left of your db) 

Here's an aggressive shorthanded game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($1153)
Hero ($984)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $120, Hero calls $90.

Flop: ($240) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $222, Hero calls $222.

Turn: ($684) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($684) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $684

Results in white below: 
BB has 9c Ks (one pair, fives).
Hero has 6c 7c (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $684. 

This is a 3-bet pot and the entire thing isn't super standard, but I can illustrate the point that I would likely not have won this pot from OOP.

I really wish I could give an even better example, but I only have 1k hands to choose from. Basically, just know that being able to act last is a huge thing. Look at your position stats sometime in poker tracker, and see how much you're winning with each hand from positions, and how much you're losing from the blinds. It's widely known that even the best in the business can't do more than barely breakeven from the blinds. Being OOP is such a tough task in many spots. To play better OOP, I suggest studying and figuring out great positions to CR the river both for value and as a bluff.

 You recommend c-betting a lot, which I agree with, but more often than not, it seems that if I open KJs UTG, get one caller, miss and c-bet a dry board I get pressured out of the hand. Similarly, if I'm in LP, and open with 9Ts and get called out of the blinds (something that seems to happen a ton to me) the blinds seem to lead into me on the flop more often than not. 

Well, here's a little secret that I probably learned right around the time I started playing 200NL. Flop donk-bets are exploitable most of the time. Most players at 100/200NL want to slowplay big hands, especially on dry boards. I recommend raising flop donk-bets a very, very high % of the time. Flop is Q 7 5 and you have any two cards, player leads into you for 12 dollars into a 18 dollar pot, just jack it up to 35 or 40 dollars right there. It will win the pot a very high percentage of the time (people donk-bet with draws often, so I recommend raising with a hand like A high that can beat most straight draws in case you have to go to showdown). If you do raise his donk, and he doesn't 3-bet, you should know that his range (for standard player) is almost always a medium one pair hand like QT, maybe a second pair hand, or a draw. People don't lead into the PFR with monsters that often.

I almost never lead into the PFR, but if someone does lead into you, take advantage of having position on all later streets (note that this will sometimes require you to fire a second bullet if they take a while and call the flop). Either way, learn how to exploit the little flop donk-bets, they're relatively easy to take advantage of.

 So say the rules were, you got the bet up to some crazy amount, like $100,000 or something, rule is you can bring anyone to the contest. If a poster was best friends with Kapono or someone and got him to come in the off season, would the rest of the guys be pissed or just be like "damn, we got owned"? 

I'd probably bring my friend in. He is shooting 52% from 3-point land this year at a D2 school in the midwest, in what is by far the most competitive D2 conference. He's a junior there, and he could have gone to a handful of D1 schools, Belmont and Army were the most prominent; but he chose to stay closer to home. I'd put him in there for straight 3s against a whole bunch of people, but I'd put myself in for HORSE. I have good range (obviously he does too) from the volleyball line+ and can shoot well left handed, off the bounce, granny style, over the backboard.. I guess i just have a good understanding of physics and creating shots, etc. so that I would put no one before myself in HORSE.

 Thanks for this and here goes.

A bit general perhaps but how do you handle being 3bet pf OOP/IP by

a) Lagtard/tricky
b) Nit 

a) Against a lagtard, it's still wise to be prudent about what you're playing in 3-bet pots. If you open the CO and a lagtard 3-bets from the blinds, you might play 9s or 10s more aggressively on certain boards. That is, you might call preflop, call a flop bet on a Q high flop if his c-bet % is high, and just try to get to showdown. Generally speaking though, if someone is aggressive and you think he's full of moves, it may be better to just call preflop for less than 10% of your stack with pocket pairs, try to hit sets, or just call preflop with aces and kings from position, and shove all flops with unders over his c-bet. By traditionally trapping this guy, you'll probably make out as good as you would if you tried other moves. Just stick to big draws, big pairs and sets in 3-bet pots. From out of position, it's really probably wise to just stay out of his hair... don't go picking a fight that you can't handle. If you think he's prone to tilt or something, you might want to play a few more hands against him and try to hit flops to tilt him, but don't call 3-bets from OOP with dominated hands like KQo or something crazy like that, stick to the basics OOP. Also, be much more likely to play hands when you're on the button if you think he 3-bets light from the blinds. When you open UTG, make sure that you know if he knows that your UTG range is tighter than your LP range, and adjust accordingly.

b) Against nits, I can't stress this enough: stay away. Basically, you're going to want to play only premiums vs them in and out of position. 4-bet MORE as a bluff and less with aces and kings, one thing with nits is that they often overplay their strong hands. So, try to hit a set when you're 150bbs deep and stack their overpair. If you raise with aces and they three-bet, don't four bet, you don't want to discourage action from QQ.

 What are you calling/4 betting with and if called how are you proceeding with a marginal (<JJ)hand on

a)dry flop
b)wet flop
c)all low cards

Basically what are you looking for in a flop in this kind of situation ? and how are you proceeding ? 

You have to know how often your opponent is 3-betting you, you have to know how often he c-bets, or more importantly, what he'll do on the turn with a whiffed hand if you call his c-bet. If I call preflop with mid pairs, I'll often call a c-bet on like jack high boards, assuming that AK and AQ whiffed. It's almost never correct to just raise, becuase you'll only get called by better hands.

As far as four-betting, I rarely 4-bet. When I do, it's usually AK, QQ+, or air. I don't know how common 4-betting with air is at 100 and 200NL, but it's become all the range at the higher stakes. I 3-bet aces from the big blind the other day, and the button shoved with A6o. I snap called and held (a miracle).

In 3-bet pots, I generally play slowly with big hands on dry boards, and quickly on draw heavy boards, obviously becuase I would play my draws quick as well so it pleases Shania.

 ae, I have a similair question, about the donks and flop bets.

at 100NL a lot of the time lately I will raise PF, say with AK and the flop will be like 2, 7, J or something. I will make my cont bet and the guy will min raise it. Now what?

I am bad at knowing what to do here. 

This comes up quite a bit. There is a huge difference if there is a flush draw on the J 7 2 board or not. If there is, people very very often check-min-raise c-bets with draws. Sometimes gutshot straight draws, but more often flush draws. Another hand people like to do this with is a medium/weak top pair hand. Sometimes, I'll call the minraise with AK (float) with the intention of taking it away on the turn. (I c-bet 10 into 18 on the flop, they make it 20, I call. Turn is a blank [not pairing the top card] he bets 30 [half pot] and I make it 100 to try and get him fold his top pair medium kicker)

Also, it would help that if you can get a stat like some people do on PAHUD where you can see what % villian raises c-bets. If I had access to that at lower levels, it probably would have helped my winrate a lot. Also, it really never hurts to 3-bet with air a decent amount. You c-bet 12, he makes it 24, pop it up to 85-100 or so on occasion and see how it goes. People generally will get tight if you 3-bet the flop unless you have an absolutely maniacal image. In this same vein, I recommend c-bets of half pot to 2/3 of pot. You might get calls from mid pair hands more often, and therefore have to fire more second barrels, but the smaller c-bets you make, the more room you have to manuever and make plays, which helps a lot.

 I started playing less than 6 months ago, had an epiphany on Dec 6th and have moved from 25NL to 100NL and have just acquired 20BI for 200NL. Personally, I've only played 13k hands of 100NL (6PTBB) and feel like I should play a bit more to fix some of my leaks before I move up more.

1. My standard deviation feels huge. For NL100, it's 55BB/100 ($110) and 54BB/hour ($107). I realize it's a pokertracker stat and that you don't have a huge chunk to check from, but clearly, neither do I (I think it used to be even larger for me in smaller stakes as I was getting better). What are your standard deviations? Do you know what these numbers 'should' be? 

I am actually not sure what my numbers are becuase I don't know where they are in Poker Tracker, and I'm not really sure what they're supposed to be. I think we had a thread on it in MSNL a while ago and most people fell between the mid forties and the high fifties.

I would really only be worried about how high variance of a style that you play if you are regularly having ten buy in downswings. A ten buy in downswing is usually indicative of some kind of leak, or just running terrible. Other downswings are usually pretty standard... but remember, downswings often lead to bad play that we can't identify as bad play because running bad and playing bad go hand in hand.

 2. What bankroll requirements would you recommend for 200NL, 400, 600, 1000? 

I used to not care about bankroll requirements. I used to just do whatever and not really worry about it. I used to have major tilt problems, go broke every month or so. I played well postflop, but didn't know what I was doing in a lot of fundamental areas of the game.

Now, I'm a huge bankroll nit. I have 50+ buyins in my account for 5-10 NL. Before I moved up, I routinely had 50+ buyins for 400NL back on Party poker and then on Stars. Really really nitty about my BR. Now, I routinely take shots, including rapage at 10-20 and 25-50.

I highly recommend 3 buy in shots (cts advocates this as well, I think he got it from aba, but I could be wrong). I think, for instance, that if you play well and feel good about your game.. for instance, if you have a 4k roll, you should perhaps take a 3 buy in [censored] at 400NL when you get to 5k. The reason is that the risk is so much worth it because of the reward. I mean, if you ran hot at 400NL and were a good/competent player, you could make a lot of money. g-p took a shot at 25-50, I think he had a decent amount of money obviously and can probably beat 25-50 full time, but the dude made like 16 buy ins in a very very short amount of time. He ran insanely hot (there is a BBV post about this). Snakekilla88 (I think thats his tag on 2+2) used to play 200NL as far as I know, took a shot at 600NL, ran insane, and now regularly plays 600 and 1000NL because of makes a ton of money from taking a shot. Playing way above your roll is NOT good, but taking controlled shots, where you say "I will play 4 tables until I get rich or lose 3 buy ins" is VERY +EV.

The higher levels that you move, the more buy ins that you need. I'd say 20 buy ins for 400NL, 30 buy ins for 600NL, and 40 buy ins for 1k NL, or something like that.

 3. You mentioned 'merging your range' as an advanced technique. Can you literally list off advanced techniques that I can look up and study one by one? I feel like I'll be moving up in the next few months and would like to start applying/trying/testing new methods before I get there.

Thanks! 

Hmmm.. as far as advanced techniques, merging your range goes hand in hand with thin value betting. Know a lot about how you want to play in 3-bet pots (a lot of this is experience). Know all the basics and the 5/10 rule (never call more than 5% of your stack with suited connectors, never call more than 10% of your stack with a pocket pair when you need to hit a set to be good). Know about b3b'ing with draws. Don't play big pots out of position. I can't really think of exact terms... there are a lot of concepts that really aren't called anything. Maybe learn the Yeti theorem and the Zeebo theorem if you don't know them; we use them as jokes around here, but they're pretty damn true. If you're really going to move up quick, know when you should be CR'ing the river. You have to be able to look at a hand and know when checking the river is great, leading it is awful. It's the number one mistake IMO of people from OOP.

To add to the post earlier of the person asking what people do wrong the most as my level, it is, without a doubt, that no one knows when to check raise the river.

 I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of river checkraising, when to and when not to do it, and also what to do when facing one. Here are a few hands I've posted in SSNL where I've checkraised the river or been checkraised on the river. If you could can you look at each of them and tell me your thoughts on each? If you could just read the original post that'd be fantastic as to not be results oriented or anything.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post9292204

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8571712

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8374710

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post8926861 

In the first one, check the river always. He has to bet AK/AA which he may have gone for pot control with on the turn, and he'll probably bet small pairs or AJ hands with no showdown value. You have to check raise the river, you've shown to much weakness.

Second hand, another good spot to check raise. Leading effectively says "I have Ad or a boat, only play hands better than that." If you check, he can bluff, or bet any big diamonds. If he checks behind like QJ of diamonds, oh well, he should probably be betting it for value. If he has a straight with no diamond, he might bluff with it, but really nothing good comes from leading.

Third hand, looks good again. He's got to v-bet 2pair+, sets, or a smaller flush. No real value in leading for the pot, a good spot to check raise because his range of hands to calls your lead that won't value bet is VERY small.

The reason a call here is good is because people don't check raise the river often enough. If he's good, I can see him having KQ type hands. But 9/10 times, someone leads that river after you check behind the turn. That's the key in this hand, you have relinquished aggression on the turn, and he's still checking the river... very few 200NL players have that kind of discipline to do this with a king.

 aejones, i just read this whole thread and i feel it gave me a lot of insight and made me a tiny bit of a better poker player.
im a retired limit player (mostly 5/10 and 10/20) just starting it up with NL 100, right now im 8 tabling and i feel i can def. beat the game, i want to play maybe 50k hands and then move on to 200, i have the roll, just dont want to jump into the cold water so quick.

1)
one thing i have a problem with.
im in the SB and its folded to me and the BB is a nit. i steal here with any two and it works close to 95% of the time.

now if the BB is a 40+ vpip i tighten up so much because i dont want to be OOP for the whole hand against them. this seems wrong because i want to play many hands against them but rather IP
should i use a different approach? 

I raise a huge variety of hands from the small blind into both nits and fish. I can see why you wouldn't want to raise into fish, because he'll be harder to get respect from c-bets, and you'll whiff a lot. However, he'll also pay off more when you flop a big hand with your 57s, so perhaps in that regard it's better to raise it up and play more straightforward postflop? It's also helps to know if 40 VPIP means he'll peel a lot of flops, does he go to showdown a lot, does he fold to second barrels, does he do leaky things like minraise with medium strength hands, and how does he view you? Lots of things to consider, not every 40 VPIP is exactly the same, though in general their lack of liking to fold is good to value bet the [censored] out of, and not dick around with marginal hands.

I think your approach is just fine, consider many things and you'll be okay.

 2)
the thing that i see as most valueable is the squeeze play. i raise the limpers and take down so many pots preflop or on the flop and get more action on my real hands. right now i mostly squeeze when people have limped, can you give me some tips about squeezing when there was a raise and a call and its my turn in the blinds or OTB.

thank you 

Squeezing is huge. It used to be no part of my game at all, but I've opened up to squeezing much more since there is tons of dead money out there from people who don't defend their open raise. Raising limpers is great, they've already given away so much of their hand by limping, or limping behind, that often a big raise can do the trick. I recommend hands with no value to do this with, or hands with strong value, and to limp behind with mediocre hands that can play well postflop if you hit a flop well.

Traditionally, you'll do fine by looking at stuff like this "CO or MP raises, his PFR is like 16%+ let's say, button calls, he'll three bet with a large range here, so he's always got small pockets or random SCs" in this case, a raise with any two from one of the blidns can definitely be plus EV. I recommend a raise to like... 4.5x or so what the open was. Open to 4 dollars, call on button for 4, you're in the bb with any two, you pop it to 18 bucks. I traditionally go to 180 in the 5/10 games after it's been 40 open and one call. Squeezing definitely gets you a lack of respect though, so act accordingly. Where there is super aggro'ness at the higher levels, you'll get stuff like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($1239.25)
Button ($1672.50)
SB ($195)
BB ($256.10)
Hero ($1015)
MP ($1021.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $30, MP calls $30, CO calls $30, Button raises to $170, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1015, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $845.

Flop: ($2105) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: ($2105) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($2105) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $2105

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kc Ac (two pair, kings and sixes).
Button has Th Tc (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2105. 

Where everyone knows what everyone knows and two tens is the nuts because opening light, squeezing light, resqueezing light, etc. I don't think games play this actively preflop, so I don't recommend this.

Some favorite posts that I wrote myself:

Raising to Isolate (my best theory post, from ~8months ago)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6579556
No Theory here, just thoughts on Party's death
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7514746
(I definitely rebounded and made 50k+ since Party died)

In this thread, interesting post about where I feel we are in comparison with the Poker World
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7927273

Posts that aren't mine, but that I think it will blow your mind to read:

Samo's first post: I learned a lot about two card poker
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post4732305

Jesus this is interesting: I reread this one once every month or two
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6267939

I'm too lazy to find more... but those are some of my favorite threads.

 Is it ever correct to c/r the flop as the PFR? can you give examples (HU and multiway) 

Actually, it certainly is.

We've been talking about this some in MSNL and HSNL, and there is really very little agreement- not really a lot of experience with is. Since I c-bet nearly always, I can't imagine checking a flop with the intention of CRing. Now, if I had to come up with some examples, I would. My favorite instances would be these:

Whenever someone checks a flop that is at least moderately draw heavy to me (assuming they are the PFR) then I will bet. The reason is obviously because people c-bet a lot and bet draws and made hands alike on a draw heavy board, so if they're checking to me, it is almost always with the intention to give up. So, if I were to encounter a player that I thought did the same as I did, I might try to check a strong made hand on a draw heavy board (maybe AK on K 7 6) as the PFR if I thought that my opponent would always pounce on it when checked to. Here, I would then CR. Now, the problem with this is two fold:

One, a check raise looks much much stronger than a lead, so people will sometimes fold mediocre strength made hands that they would often call behind if you lead.

Now, that doesn't look like that big of a problem, but it presents another problem. If you start doing it as a bluff, people will start checking behind, and being OOP with a hand that wants to win a mediocre pot is tough. That is, you had garbage, you check the flop, opponent checks behind, and you lead a bunch of turns- now, he can call with A-high if he thinks you'll never check the flop with a decent made hand (one pair or better, excluding very small pairs), or he can just raise you with air or float you with anything to take it away on the river.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is be very careful with how your opponents will react to a flop CR if you are the PFR. IF you confuse your opponents, they'll often get so befuddled they'll want to look you up. So in conclusion, you may want to try this with a made hand- but if you c-bet as much as me, you don't want to [censored] with Shania too much, and your CR will look much, much stronger than your straight lead.

 1) In 3bet pots pf if I'm not doing the 3bet, what type of hands can I call with and with what intention? obviously position matters, so touch on that, but is calling w/ KQo w/100bb after I open OTB and the BB repops a solid play? Now what if I was OOP? I understand the 10% rule in regards to pocket pairs, but I'm having trouble w/ other hands. 

So much of what you're saying is feel, and even more of what you're asking is player specific. First, if a guy is tight preflop, 15/10, I recommend basically never playing a hand that is dominated so easily like KQ (specifically offsuit). That is, unless you feel he's picking on you, ditch a hand like this (and maybe even AQ). Against a 22/18 type who likes to 3-bet from the blinds (and defniitely knows that you open lightly) you can defend with certain unpaired hands (T9s, KQ, sometimes even AJ, though you'll put yourself in sticky situations with a hand like that and might want to bluff raise certain amount of pots). A lot of times, you'll want to know his 2-barreling frequency in 3-bet pots as the key. For instance, you raise to 6 OTB and bb makes it 20, you have ten-nine suited, my favorite hand. I realize there is a 5/10 rule, but if we say you are 300 dollars deep, calling is okay. So, you call with 9Ts. The flop is J 9 5. In almost all instances, calling is the correct play if he c-bets. Same with KQ on Q 9 5 board. Basically, whenever you make a one pair hand that you don't think dominates other one pair hands that you'll get action from, you should go into call down mode and "turn your hand face up" to pick off bluffs and not blow your opponent off of worse hands.

Now, this changes with QQ. If you have QQ and you are on the button and you call a 3-bet, the flop is 7 3 2, there is a huge difference. I will still sometimes call here, but notice this: The distance between the TOP card on the board and your pair is such that other pairs are considered overpairs and will frequently give you action. Thus, if a guy reraises TT, you are going stack-city on most 7 high flops with queens, it is the reason that you just called preflop after all, right?

But I'm digressing. Back to unpaired hands. KQo is generally not a hand I want to play OOP in a 3-bet pot. If I play it in position, it is will the intention of floating a ton of flops with one pair hands and gutters and dangerous flops alike.

 2) I think I've hit some SICK variance in my days and it's doing its best work to cloud up my judgment, which is generally pretty good but I have difficulty putting it into action. So assume 100bb stacks. I open in the cutoff w/ 67s and 20/14 BB makes it 3x to go. I call (?) and flop is T75 with one of my suit and BB leads for 2/3 of the pot. What's my play? If I call the flop it's a tough turn call if he shoves, unless I improve, right? And since I could pick up the FD or SD calling the turn becomes necessary often. That said, does it make more sense to raise the flop knowing that I am almost never a huge dog here (not too likely to have a set), that he'll fold some overcards OR make a bad call, that he'll fold some bigger pairs but call with most of them? Basically, knowing that I've probably got 35%ish equity here is it worth shoving this spot with this hand so I can make other shoves later on or is that massive spew? Shoving takes away our positional advantage, but it prevents us from getting bluffed out on a blank, calling a bet when he hits the turn, etc.

Thanks- this whole thing is very solid. 

Well, I think I've kind of alluded to this (and I posted a hand with 76s HU earlier in the thread that is similar). You need to know two barreling frequencies. What does your opponent think that you raise on this flop? What does he think you call with? Is the flop dry? Does he think I'll slowplay on a dry flop to induce two barrels? Does he think I'm capable of slowplay on a draw heavy board? Will he fire two barrels on a draw heavy board because he thinks I'll always raise a monster on it? I know you can't know the answer to all of these questions, but you should be thinking about them and using past hands to come up with the best that you can. If you call that flop with 76, it should be with the intention of either betting most turns when checked to (what you'd do with a float, hopefully a big hand as well) or checking most turns when checked to. Than, on the river, assuming that it goes runner runner blanks, you have to know something along the lines of: Will he open shove as a bluff? Always for value? Did I hit my 5-outer? Betting the turn vs betting the river in 3-bet pots is something that fascinates me. I've made hypotheses about it in the past and been wrong, but I think the interpretation of that play changes as you go up in stakes.

Shoving this flop is something I generally don't like to do. It depends on the player, however. If you think he can fold jacks (he probably SHOULD fold jacks, unless there is some serious metagame going on, do you see why?) then shoving this flop is better than calling down often, because he'll think that you always shove this flop with QQ+ and sometimes sets. It all really depends what level that you're both on. But, to answer your basic question, I play passively in 3-bet pots, and I would almost always just call here with one pair hand that is ahead of whiffed overcards.

 Are you from Indiana? If so, where?

My entire family went to Butler. My mother actually went to Broad Ripple HS. I was the first to break the mold (Miami-OH). Why Butler?

I spent some fun nights in Broad Ripple about 10-15 years ago (Rock Lobster and Mine Shaft were a couple of bars back then). 

I grew up in NW Indiana, the Region, Hammond to be exact.

My studies have no real rhyme or reason to lead me to Butler. Butler is one of the best pharcmacy programs and dance programs in the country. I want nothing to do with either. I was an exploratory major for my first 3 semesters, and just recently adopted Business as my future forte (to be honest, for lack of a better career/major choice). I guess I chose Butler because of location (~2 hours from home), the fact that it is an excellent school academically, and they offered me a large chunk of my tuition in scholarship money due to my academics and SAT scores. It certainly doesn't hurt that there are two girls to every guy here.

Mine Shaft and the Rock Lobster are still around, and combined with Average Joe's and the Vogue are the most popular spots for 20-somethings in Broad Ripple still. I'm only 20, but when I adopt the -something portion of the age, I suppose I'll be out in Broad Ripple quite a bit even though I don't drink.

 Just chiming in to say this is a great thread. I actually had several 'aha moments' reading this and the posts linked over to it. I think my play probably jumped a couple of levels from reading and thinking about this stuff. 

Glad I could be of service.

 ae-
your officially my favorite 2+2er.
(in a very heterosexual way of course) 

Of course. I'm pretty sure you're my first fanboy.


wow ae, giving out quite a lot of info. 

I can't really see any reason why not to. I don't forsee online poker being great forever and I don't think a very high % of my opponents will get around to reading it. I hope you've enjoyed it sir I think back in the day you were always one of the most underrated posters. I don't remember specific poiints, but I think somewhere you've written things that have helped my game.

 Thanks a lot of doing this!!

One more question:

Say I am kind of stuck in a rut concerning my game. Or sday you were. What would be your plan of attack to get out of the rut? In terms of playing vs studying/reading?

I am not sure the best way to review my play and make sure I am losing pots due to variance and not tilt and/or bad plays. 

Well, I kind of feel like I'm in a rut right now. I have had some school work to catch up on, and I have been sick and just wanted to relax, so I haven't really had the motivation to play. Interestingly enough, last night I read through two or three HSNL threads for about 2 hours, and talked about them with some people over AIM. This gave me some motivation.. unfortunately, I feel like I have the strength of 100 men, but not enough time to play online, or put in serious sessions, since I still have a few midterms and then I'm going to Germany in a week.

Read some of the threads I linked. Read long discussions in MSNL about hands. Maybe go back and read some poker books that you like and see if you can comprehend them further. Watch Rounders, that's always helped me.

To review play, you just have to post or send other people hands. Get a million opinions. Make people tell you why and figure out if it's right or not. Get favorite SSNL posters and follow them around and ask them things.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, you raise to 6 OTB and bb makes it 20, you have ten-nine suited, my favorite hand. I realize there is a 5/10 rule , but if we say you are 300 dollars deep, calling is okay. So, you call with 9Ts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this should be basic, but can you please explain the above...

[/ QUOTE ]

In shorthanded cash games in general, the theory is that you should not be putting in more than 5% of your stack before the flop with suited connectors, or more than 10% of your stack before the flop with pocket pairs that need to hit a set in order to improve and win. These numbers changes slightly for players who are better, players who bluff more, and players who can win showdowns without hitting sets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Now, that doesn't look like that big of a problem, but it presents another problem. If you start doing it as a bluff, people will start checking behind, and being OOP with a hand that wants to win a mediocre pot is tough. That is, you had garbage, you check the flop, opponent checks behind, and you lead a bunch of turns- now, he can call with A-high if he thinks you'll never check the flop with a decent made hand (one pair or better, excluding very small pairs), or he can just raise you with air or float you with anything to take it away on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my Q is how do we start getting into our opponents heads online? How do we know how he will react and what he will think? Like in your example, how do we deduce that he thinks that we will never check the flop with a decent made hand there? 

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, it is not good to check a flop with a strong hand on a draw heavy board. The reason is that, if the flop is Q 7 5 with two hearts, we want to bet a wide variety of hands, villian may call with a wide variety of hands. That is, we h ave 86 for an OESD, we will likely bet because we will make a very strong hand (a straight) a strong % of the time. We will also win the hand with our betting and aggression another % of the time. The reason we win is not because we bet our draws, it is because we will also bet AA, most Qs, two pair hands, and sets on this flop. We bet our flush draws, our strong made hands, and a bunch of stuff in between, we become difficult to play against.

In general, I will say that it is "good" to bet your made hands on draw heavy boards (that is, on most levels. at the top levels, there are times it becomes correct to not so much bet your made hands on draw heavy boards a small % of the time to mix up your play, but this is umpteenth leveling at hand, I'd rather not concentrate on it). It is good because if we have three queens on that Q high flop with two hearts, we may be able to show weakness by checking, but we run the risk of having a card or cards come out to kill our action. We have top set, the turn and river could put four to a straight or four to a suit out there. So, the value of checking the flop for deception very often goes out the window since so many cards will kill our action, much more often then people catch up to a second best hand on the turn that pay us off.

Those are some simple ways to know if your opponent will check the flop with a strong hand on certain boards. Even on dry boards, too often IMO people play sets too fast. on a T 6 2 board, bets and raises on the flop is almost always a bluff (or a monster, I guess, if leveling is going on) which is the basis of the Yeti theorem (which states, basically, that no one every has a hand if they 3-bet the flop on a dry [usually paired] board).

So to answer your question, we don't know what he will think exactly. But figure out what level he's on, is he thinking like me? Is he thinking like you? Players at your level will often think like you if you're both winners (this is true more often at midstakes). Or, if you both read 2+2. So think what you'd do and why you'd do it and why you'd bet it, or why it'd be a good idea to bet it, and then out level him by doing just above that. Sometimes, with bluffing at higher stakes, so much nth level thinking is present that all that matters is who gets the last bet in.

bubaloo · #5 11-25-2007, 11:18 AM

ae plz recommend a good shampoo ty 

I've got some V05 for Normal hair with shine enhancing nutrients right now at college. But I gotta tell ya, I'm really an Herbal Essences guy at heart.

 knew it 

Do you often picture me screaming while using it in the shower?

 quote-
"that no one ever has a hand if they 3-bet the flop on a dry [usually paired] board)."

What are we talking about as far as 3bet on flop? Bet and raise(3bet) or bet/raise/reraise(3bet)? 

Raise preflop, call from the button. Flop is Q Q 2, you c-bet 40 bucks, they raise to 120, you 3-bet to 300... the contention is that no one ever 3-bets there with a real hand, always as a bluff. The basis of it is that if you get raised with a Q in your hand, you'll want to slow down and play it slower now that you've got action. Or, if you've got a big pair, you'l want to play for pot control now. Or, if you've flopped an underful, you've also got a monster, so slow down and let your opponent hang themselves. That is why if you 3-bet that dry ass flop, everyone will always think "He's so Full of [censored] here."

[ QUOTE ]
Made a post but looking for your input on this hand, it gave me some trouble.

Villain just sat down but seemed like a tag from what I could tell. How do you play this hand pretending you called PF. Do you call PF by the way? Odds were not too bad with his little reraise...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($88)
CO ($100)
Hero ($100)
SB ($107.05)
BB ($84.30)
UTG ($128.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero calls $4, SB raises to $11, 1 fold, UTG folds, Hero calls $7.

Flop: ($27) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $12, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($51) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $27, Hero ? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling preflop is not the worst thing in the world if you don't hate variance. Postflop, I think you played it absolutely fine. Since the raise came from UTG, sb probably isn't squeezing light. You got a VERY cheap look at your draw to the nuts on the flop, plus pair cards that I might have you call the turn with. Since you whiffed the turn and he keeps half potting it, I assume he's got JJJ, QQ-AA much, much more than AK/air because less than half pot- half pot seems like a bluff very rarely. If you picked up a flush draw on the turn I would probably advocate shoving rarely and calling more often. I'd go ahead and be glad you got to see your draw on the flop for 12 dollars (a mistake by him, poor bet sizing) than 22 dollars (where you almost certainly couldn't profitably call).

Go ahead and fold the turn, I think it's okay if you chuck the turn.

I think you need about 150 to start the hand to call the turn profitably. I guess if you think he stacks off on all rivers, rarely has QQ, then you could do exact math to determine what odds you need to call the turn. Just by looking at it though, that's what I think.

 AE,

Great Well. Thank you.

Questions: What differentiates a 22/17 player from a 26/22 (like yourself) from a 32/26 (or whatever CTS runs)?

From reading this thread thus far, it seems that you often advocate cold calling an open in position w/ small PPs and many SCs. I realize you’re not a huge stats guy, but as your Att to Steal % isn’t ridiculously high, I’m curious as to if the difference is raising more liberally from the cutoff, increased squeezing, an even broader range from the button, more 3 Betting from the blinds, or some other factor.

Thanks 

A 26/22 player really doesn't differentiate from a 22/12 as much as you'd think. In general, I feel like it's mostly that the 22/17 folds a lot of marginal hands like face card-face card hands, one gap suited connectors, and probably 3-bets less light and steals much less. Also, a lot of these stats are really skewed a bit because of shorthanded play. At Stars, the 1k NL tables break so often I play a lot of 3 and 4 handed poker. A guy like CTS playing 32/26ish is literally putting pressure on everyone anytime he gets a reasonable opportunity. He 3-bets pretty light to get the lead in many hands, he raises just about any two from the button (that's really the key) and he's got no problem taking flops out of the big blind to an open raise. Playing a lot of hands gives him an opportunity to play more pots with players that he plays better than postflop, and acquire a sweet image to get paid off with, especially when he's more than 100bbs deep.

My AtS% probably isn't that high because it's an overused art. That is, if I have people who I think 3-bet me light and I don't want to get in a variance war by 4-betting preflop or shoving blank flops, I will sometimes tighten up from the button. When I say tighten up, My VPIP is still generally in the 30s, but compared to some people pushing over 40, they are certainly opening some Q8o hands that I might be folding (a huge majority of the time whether or not I open light from the button will depend upon whether or not I have action on another table).

Yea, I call a lot too from position with medium strength hands and strong hands, sometimes even weak hands. Playing flops from position with a bag of tricks = +++EV.

 This brings me to something I've been thinking about for a while ?
What I am struggling to understand here .... having watched a lot of Green Plastic videos
I have grown accustomed to him 'preaching' or saying that his vpip and pfr are very close.
Therefore I usually run a 18/17 kinda game, but depending on tableconditions it can morph up to somehing like 28/26
Recently I noticed that many run 18/14 or 22/12, but I can't imagine what makes their pfr so low ... ??
What am I missing, how does a 22/12 style actually differentiate from a 22/20 and what are your view on these two ? 

For a long time I was like a 32/20 style. The difference in the VPIP and PFR is marked by the frequency (or lack thereof) of 3-betting. So, I used to call a lot in the blinds with hands like QTs, even 53s, but that was pretty unprofitable. GP (whose game I know nothing about) must like to 3-bet a lot. He's probably 3-betting hands from the blinds like small pocket pairs and face-card face-card hands, whereas I used to (and occasionally still do) just call here. I 3-bet much more becuase of how weak LP opens usually are, but still not as much as the average 2+2er. TBH, a 20/12 is prob not 3-betting light at all, or maybe he's 3-betting TT+ AK and air, but not 77+ and AJs+ or something, I'm not sure.

The two guys on Party poker that gave me the most trouble back in the day at 400 were, possibly by far, Nethervoid (EgoSlasher on 2+2, I talk to him sometimes on AIM now) and PeeringGaze (PurpleLight on 2+2, don't think he posts much anymore). I used to tangle with these guys a ridiculous amount. I was a spewy LAG playing a [censored] ton of hands and they were 18/17 and 22/20 snare drum tight tags that just killed me. They were more aggressive to boot, I was really just donating them money for quite a while. Anyways, that style can be really, really effective, and I was a 23/19 for a brief period while trying to be really tight preflop.

Just remember how much more important postflop is than preflop, numbers can't dictate that. Then, play the hands that you're comfortable playing, don't force anything.

 you mentiond you've had problems with tilt.
what have you done/do you do to better control yourself? 

This is quite an interesting subject. I used to have an awful time with this. I'd win and win, run my account up, and then just nose dive and have a -4k day when I was moving up to chase my losses. About a year ago, I started four tabling intensely and I just decided there was too much money to be made for me to tilt off stacks. So, about that time I put a real BR online and cashed out less, trusted myself more, and tilted less. Gradually, it got worse. I was still losing significant amounts of money due to crazy monkey tilt (magnified when playing loose in the beginning) until September.

In September, I literally sat down and told myself that poker was good too hard online. I needed to relax and not make any more mistakes. I have made very few, almost no, tilt plays in the last 6 months. I don't know what clicked, I guess I just put an intense pressure on myself. Occasionally, I put music on (there is a song in particular) to chill myself. Often, I write little notes about playing perfectly, only having one chance to make the right decision, etc. and stick them on my desk while I play.

 I haven't played that much with you but what do you think of my game from the bit I've played with you + my posts?

Also how did I not meet you at the pca? 

At the tables during Party days I thought you were a strong TAG at like 22/18 (I think?) that gave me a moderate amount of problems. Fairly straightforward and I was pretty sure you were a good winner. I don't know if you play under the same name at Stars, or if I have played against you on Stars, or if I'm just cracking up all around, but I get the feeling we haven't played much lately. Seems like from your posts you seem to be a little bit lost in some spots, IMO, but perhaps you are just more honest about spots where you're not as accustomed to and want some reassurance, or perhaps you were running bad, I'm not too sure. Either way, I'm sure that you're a winning cash game and tournament player, and that if you do want to get better you'll do whatever work needs to be done.

No idea how we missed each other. I was walking around in cutoffs with goofy frayed long hair, probably laughing with a whole bunch of my friends, playing 10-20 uncapped and donating in all the tournaments. I met a few 2+2ers, but in general I didn't go looking for them, they kind of came up to me randomly or something- I didn't walk around trying to ask people who they were. I didn't meet as many people as I wanted probably. Oh well. Someday, I'm sure I'll meet everyone.

 I was DwightSchrute on PP. What do you think of my play (if you remember it at all)? 

I laughed out loud when I saw your Party Poker name. What I remember, is that you played pretty super aggro like 23/20 type in cash games, really 3-bet me and talked a bunch of [censored] for a while, I thought you might have been a decent winner at midstakes. Then, I see you donk a few stacks off in pretty spewy fashion. Then, I see you in some random tournaments. Last but not least, I believe you were short stacking the PP 400 game the last couple of times I played it. You'd come in for 80, shove preflop and I'd make a huge loose spewy call because obviously "screw those [censored] short stacking son of a bitches." So, your QQ would hold against my ATs, I'd get mad, you'd leave and come back to another one of my tables, and you prob owned me a little from ratholing.

I'm pretty sure that's accurate. FWIW, I don't know how often you shortstacked, it might have been some random rare occurance. It was pretty annoying, but I think you were usually pretty entertaining in the chat.

 Love this well, thanks Aejones.

Can you give an example of WA/WB and how to correctly play the hand? 

When in a WA/WB situation, you can usually check streets that you wouldn't always check. So, you have AA on a 9 3 3 board. He checks, you bet the flop, he calls. The turn is a J. You can check the turn if you want, because you're WA/WB. It's like, he's got two outs if he's got a pocket pair, or if he's got a 5, you have two outs yourself. There's very little to protect from. On some T 7 5 boards with flush draws, you bet and he calls, it's not always WA/WB, guys can have pair+draw hands, and so it's usually barely ahead or way behind- a reason a lot of people advocate folding one pair hands in some spots (QQ on that T 7 5 board with a flush draw, if he's got a megadraw you're barely a favorite, pair and a draw barely a favorite, and he's almost never shoving with just a bare ten- so people often say "You're either barely ahead, or way behind, just fold," I didn't play out this whole hand with bet sizing or anything, but you get the idea).

Meh, probably didn't explain it great, did the best I could. I feel like they're easy to identify when you see them, so maybe just get used to seeing them and they'll come up in threads and stuff.

 Strassa vs Doyle, HU, 200 BBs. You are given 10g to wager. Who do you bet on and how many hands does it last? 

I'm betting my ten thousand on Strasser. I don't know Jason personally, hopefully I'll get a chance to meet him one day. However, I feel like he's got to have a better control of staying a level ahead of Doyle- figuring out where he's at and pinpointnig it. I actually think Doyle is really, really good though, from what I know. I'm kind of a Strasser fanboy in a sense... I think he's a spewy LAGtard at times, but he recognizes it and I am just as spewy most times. Basically, I just really feel like he's a "thinker" when it comes to poker. I mean, he might not come up with entirely new things, but he's always thinking about stuff. His mind is running... he wants to think of situations in tournaments and cash games alike where he can pick up chips for free. He's not convinced that what people know is enough. I feel the same way, this game may have been around for a very long time, but there are always new trends and new fashions, the key is to stay on top of them before they happen.

So, I'm sure Jason will never see this, but hopefully one day I'll sit at the same table as him and he'll respect my game too. I've got Jason in like... 400 hands? They could both be pretty spewy, and chances are they'll want to go to a bunch of flops.. a few hundred hands, Doyle is definitely no pushover.

 AE,
I've played prob about 10k hands with you on stars eagleskickas

I never played cash on party until now.

I guess I'll meet you at some random event at some point. I didn't really play any poker that whole trip after I busted. 

No idea why I thought we played on Party. I guess it was back in the day on my old computer.. and I just thought everything pre-Christmas was from Party or whatever. Bleh, I don't have my database accessible from my laptop. Who is up/down between us? Any fun hands? I remember one where I played an Ace high flush draw pretty weirdly I think...

Other than that, I'm really [censored] pissed that someone broke my laptop and that my hands on my newish desktop just got [censored] wiped basically. Oh well, stuff happens, just don't step in it.

 you talk alot about reads, how do you get such good reads playing so many tables? I 6 table and have a hard time getting good reads.. Do you base yours on stats a lot, or is it just from previous history and what are like the 2-3 biggest things you look for? 

I base quite a bit on generalizing through stats, but if I played less tables, I'd really focus on postflop reads. Knowing things like can this guy CR with a draw on the turn? how often does this guy c-bet? is he capable of multiple barrels?

So, I know things like that and then I stay a step ahead. What is this guy thinking? If I'm playing like 4 of the same tables, sometimes it'll just run through my mind that based on our recent history, I think for sure this guy is going to try and bluff me, and if he does, for sure this will be his bet sizing. Then, if I can predict stuff, I just feel like I'm seeing into the future sometimes, I know when guys take x amount of time to make a decision, they're thinking about how to bluff raise me, or if they're getting the right price for a draw. Then against less exploitable opponents, I'm thinking about how they won't do things like pause a long time with the nuts, they'll play pretty standardly, so ANYTHING they do can't be read too far into, because they know that I'm thinking what they're thinking.

When thinking about reads, it's important to stay ahead of the man you're playing against. Probably my number one general read is just: Is this guy capable of stone cold bluffing? Some guys aren't, even at midstakes, so I can deduce hand ranges much better by knowing what he regard is for money and his state of mind, perhaps attainable from the past few hands he's played.

 How bad is this hand played?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $216.15
UTG+1: $100
CO: $81
Button: $88.45
SB: $112.50
HERO: $181.05

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is BB with Q 7
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, HERO calls.

Flop: 5 T 9 ($11, 3 players)
HERO checks, UTG bets $11, Button calls, HERO calls.

Turn: J ($44, 3 players)
HERO checks, UTG checks, Button bets $44, HERO folds, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $44 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $44

I have already been heavily criticized, i just thought I would get some more from you since you are trapped in the well. 

I can't see suits, but unless it's Q7 suited, I don't know why you're calling preflop. If it is suited, you can almost make a case for calling preflop if he's not good at poker, but being OOP with a hand like that this deep isn't necessarily good, you have to proceed with too much caution even when you do hit your hand.

I don't know why you check called the flop either- must have had a flush draw. It's played pretty passively I guess and loosely all around, two characteristics that are generally not associated with good, power, poker.

 AE,
I have always found you to be really obnoxious and overconfident. But it is clear from this well that you have a true passion for cards much like myself, and I respect that a lot.

Although a lot of what you posted was geared toward SSNL, some of the strategy discussed in this thread is pretty interesting, even if I do not exactly agree w/ some of it. The SSNLers have good reason to thank you, as you have given away a pretty good amount of valuable info here. 

Yea, I don't see any real reason to hide anything, and I think most people geniunely appreciate it. Some of the strategy is actually fairly deep, I feel like I've kind of written a playbook in here. I mean, my friends were talking to me online the other day, saying "Jesus Christ, if I could have read that a year and a half ago and known that stuff on Party Poker... I'd be the richest person in the world." That may be an overexaggeration, but it's kind of true. I won so much on Party Poker and most of the time I wasn't very good.

A lot of my strategy is preference. Some of it may be downright "wrong" or just not optimal, I can't be sure. A lot of it is conclusions and preferences that I have come to over hundreds of thousand of hands at a bunch of different levels. It's kind of funny, do you remember that 'QJs and Mixing up your play' thread in HSNL last summer? I think I linked it in this well. Anyways, I think that's a perfect example of how you can basically have a handful of the biggest online winners arguing one side, and a handful of another group of people who have won just as big online advocating another thing. Point being: it's possible, even at the highest levels, to disagree about poker related plays. Some people just interpret and apply theory differently, even though the overall EV of the situations is so marginally different that it almost doesn't matter in the long run. People play differently, even the best play differently, there's so much preference in poker that I don't think we're all supposed to agree with each other in all facets (though to some degree, there are plays that are the "best," it just so happens that poker is a very opponent dependant game, obviously).

 My question for you is in regards to game selection in the current era: I read your reply about the current differences between 2-4 to 5-10 etc. Recently I have played every limit including 25/50, and because I have ran really well, and haven't played that many hands post-legislation, I am unsure where my EV is highest. So my question is, assuming a decent amount of table selection on Stars, what is the most profitable level to play right now. I was a 4bb/100 over 250k hands at 3/6nl party if that gives you any insight into my skill level. 

In the current era, I'm always afraid the 'long run' will never come.. or at least it's farther off than ever. Because of that, there is an even more pressing need to game select and not tilt. For game selection, I think it's just important to scope the games and see what is best at that hour. I mean, I think Stars 5/10 is softish if you game select well, but there are times that Zeebo and Krantz and FWF and raptor and a bunch of other good regs are on every table and I just won't touch it with a ten foot pole. I've always thought that 3/6 was kind of difficult, most of the regs there I have some respect for, and a lot of times they're slumming there from 5/10, and perhaps are even more difficult to play against because of their lack of respect for the money, since it's slightly smaller stakes. But in general, I've never had much of a thing for 3/6 I guess. I never quite got the roll I wanted to play it regularly on Party (I had like 10k hands or whatever, and truthfully I probably could have played it, but I was a BR nit). So, I'm used to 2/4 and 5/10, and not so much 3/6 for some reason. I played a good deal of 2/4 on Stars, and I thought it was pretty soft most of the time. Lately, I hear a whole bunch of serious midstakes players are moving down there to lower variance I guess and play more tables. It seems to be working for a lot of them, and I have a few friends who are beating it pretty good lately, and they seem to think it's usually soft.

So, I guess I'd say 2/4 almost all of the time is good for playing many tables (don't know what your setup permits you to play). 5/10 seems to be good most of the time.

10/20 has been kind of an enigma for me. I've got like a half dozen sessions there, maybe 5k hands overall. I won a buy in or two in the beginning, then I started running badly. I just lost a bunch of coinflips, the combo draw end beat my two pair, then my combo draw misses, then I make a nice call with AK high to a flush draw on the flop and lose another coin flip. I guess just a bunch of variance that came at the wrong time for me. I think this game is soft at times, but some of the sharks in it are super aggro and really give me troubles- I think there's a huge difference in the 10-20 game when you have regs from 5-10 in it and regs from 25-50 in it. It's a fairly noticeable difference IMO and identifiable right away (usually by just scoping the table). I also don't have any datamined stats or use any table selection software, no idea how much that helps in this era.

I even think there are times when 25/50 is soft. Not when there are 5 short stackers, but when you find a nice table that is like 3 stacks of 2500-4000 or something, a few scared money guys and some loose fish or something. I've played only a few 25-50 hands, and not good things have come from it, but I can see the merits to jumping in that game from time to time.

I guess I don't know your exact bankroll conditions, but I would say it's more important than ever to be a little careful with your bankroll. In that regards, I would say you just have to scope out what is soft when it's soft. 5/10 will probably usually suffice, but the 10/20 game usually isn't too scary. When there are more difficult regs on, just move down to 2/4 and 3/6.

By the way the only tables I really have info on are Stars tables, I don't know much about Tilt, I hear it's a little tougher but my account has been locked for no reason for like two months.

 Is this profitable without reads:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?863780

Taylor always did something like this in his videos.But it does not really seem to work.Or what do you think? 

Without reads, this looks absolutely [censored] awful. Guys minraise the flop with three kinds of hands: Absolute monsters, medium strength hands that they usually aren't good enough to fold, and draws.

I hate "guessing" that he doesn't have a monster this time, ESPECIALLY when he leads the turn. If you're going to float the flop minraise (I'd probably pick a better time to do it, board texture wise), then I would just fold the turn- or bet when checked to I suppose. Without a flush draw out there, I don't see this play being any good. He's going to turn up with a big, big hand too often IME.

I hate minraisers too, but just fold the flop. I'd rather do this on a J 8 3 board with two to a flush. Then, I might bet AK and call a minraise, because I'll be good a high % of the time anyways, and I can deduce a lot about his hand from how he acts the turn. But really, you need postflop reads to do this kind of thing. With no knowlege, I can't see how Taylor could possibly like doing this too often, unless he absolutely is in love with variance.


Oh forgot to say he minraised instantly.Taylor said that quick minraises showed weakness. 

Yea, if it was instant, I guess I'd lean more towards it being a draw (bluff) or a medium strength hand (trying to find out where he's at). Either way though, there aren't too many tells that are completely reliable nowadays, different donks do different things.

 http://www.pokerhand.org/?863843
Karmenito 22.4/7.5/0.7
Barius 24.4/7.4/3.7
And me 22.3/17.9/6.1

Minraise was scary so maybe a call was better.What do you think? 

An all in is just fine there. You have soo much equity vs anything that he can have, you have a 6 so it takes away a lot of combinations of middle set. You're showing a ton of strength. You kill any other draws. Getting all in with ANY FE at all is spectacular in that spot... played just fine.

 And another question:
How often do you call with 67s to a 3-bet preflop?

Everybody has 200.Everybody folds to hero who raises to 7 OTB.SB folds and a bit laggy BB reraises to 23. 

Meh, fold sometimes, call if he's active, but be prepared to push a bunch of flops that you miss, all that you flop an OESD or flush draw. I like to be a little bit deeper, and you have to have a GOOD read of your opponent to make this call preflop.. I think it's marginal. I do it sometimes if I'm running good or if I want to tilt my opponent. Try to make sure you know something about him though if you want to make this call profitably.

 And one more question:
Same situation and I have 88.I decide to call that 3-bet.
Flop is 223r.He bets 30.If I wanna make a play here, should I raise or just call with the intention to bet when he checks on the turn? 

Just call with the intention of controling the size of the pot. The board is so dry that almost no one is going broke with 66 there, and your hand only beats whiffed overs. No need to raise out of fear of an overcard hitting, just call and control the pot. Bet most turns depending on what they are.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to digest your "merging ranges" post.

I think I may have an example in which I merged my range.
Yes/no?

Full Tilt Poker
$0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

Stack Sizes
SB: $132
Hero (BB): $119.85
UTG: $143
MP: $93.70
CO: $78.45
BTN: $98.50

Preflop: T

T

($1.5, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, BTN folds, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $8

Flop: 4

2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J

($24, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: 4

2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J

[6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($24, 2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero calls $15

River: 4

2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J

6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [2

] ($54, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20, SB calls $20

Results:
SB had K

A

(a pair of Twos)
Hero had T

T

(two pair, Tens and Twos) and won $91
Final Pot: $91.00 ($3.00 rake)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mixed feelings about this hand. First, I'd usually c-bet the flop. The reason is that if he's got a jack, he's not going anywhere anyways. If he's got a second pair, which is defined as any 6 to TT here, then you've got the best "second pair" hand. That is, if you bet this flop, expect a call from 77-99 quite often. Especially since the flop is draw heavy... I'm c-betting here almost always (15 dollars is proabbly my preference with size). You've got the right idea I think... the problem is that one of the draws come in on the river, so he can be checking a better hand here with some "fear." That said, if you're going to bet the river, your sizing looks good to me. As long as you don't think he's capable of taking advantage of it with a bluff CR, it's fine.

 http://www.pokerhand.org/?864587
Villain is lag.And I guess I was a tag.Should I fold? 

absolutely not. he will have JT/overpair/hearts WAY more than he needs to to make this call profitable. if he hit a bigger two pair on the turn, chalk it up to variance.

 So I'd like to have you address the controversial topic of folding KK preflop. In the past I would post hands where a straight forward multitabling tag would 4 bet preflop and I am holding KK, knowing that I am up at worst another KK, and asking what I should do in that situation. The consensus always seems to be, if he's got AA he's got AA, but you should never fold KK preflop. Someone even calculated that only once out of 9000 hands will you face an KK vs AA situation.

But I've still added this to my repertoire, again only when all signs are pointing to this being the type of tag who will never look to get his stack in preflop with worse than KK against another tag. For the record, my stats run about 16/12 and even though I mix it up more than those stats would suggest (more by floating and occasionally double barrelling than 3betting light) I don't think most view me as anything other than tightish. Do you agree that there are spots when folding KK preflop is correct? 

Yea, I've folded KK twice in 6m. The first time, it was a terrible fold. It looked like it should have been a good fold, the way the action went, but a guy pushed with two jacks and later showed them... it was at the beginning of the session, and later i found out the guy was a pretty big donk, and I was not happy.

Another time, I raise from the button, guy 3-bets to 44 or something, I pop it to 150 because we're 600 deep. His stats are like 24/5 preflop, and I didn't remember anything about him. So he shoves almost instantly, and in the chat he says "I'll show." I mucked before I let myself even think about the situation, and he showed aces. I posted that hand in the MSNL, I'm really glad that guy wanted 100% of 150 instead of 80% of 600, what a nice fellow.

In general, I'm sure there are situations that folding kings preflop at a 6 max table are correct. However, the more you move up, with all the leveling going on, I've seen hands and gone "[censored], I'm positive he's got AA" and sometimes he does, and sometimes he shows up with A8s on a super-duper tricky watch this fold equity type of bluff that is supposed to look so strong it folds everything but kings and aces. So, I never really have to worry about folding kings preflop, because it's pretty awful in most spots in the games that I play in.

That said, just go with your reads. I wouldn't fold them, but my image is different than yours. If your read is really that this guy is so nitty he's not thinking enough to bluff here ever, then just fold. And remember, folding is always 0EV. There is an opportunity cost to folding, just like in business, but it is always 0EV.

 Great well.

Do you think the Jkratzer (v citanul) thread was a good example of merging ranges? Basically JKratzer tried to make a thin value raise, merging his range between his monsters and bluffs hoping to get a hero call from a worse hand. 

It was a great example. Kratzer shoved his two kings because Citanul never thinks that he'll shove an overpair there. Which means, the likelyhood of Cit calling JK should be, IN THEORY, the EXACT same with AT or 64 (64 was trips). Now, it usually isn't, because Cit probably isn't on a high enough level for it to be (he may recognize that they hold the same relative strength here, I'm not sure).

However, if JK starts pushing over pairs there, he's going to merge his range and be more difficult to play against. From an outsiders point of view, there is no doubt that his push looks fairly desperate and might get him a hero call on occasion. However, I think the EV of calling has to be higher, since the reason that the bluff would work is because the shove looks so strong- therefore Cit shouldn't be able to call his shove with something that JK beats.

From Cit's point of view, if he's going to CC the flop and float, his river bet is [censored] terrible. Don't let anyone tell you that it's good. JK's shove in this spot is such a sick, sick value-merge that Cit should never expect it, in theory. Since he should never expect to get VALUE shoved by a better hand, he should ONLY lead the river if he thinks that JK's bluff RAISE range on the river is VERY high, and at 400NL no way anyone bluff raises the river enough, especially since JK has trouble repping much.

So, while it's a good spot in theory to merge your range, I think calling is a spot with higher EV.

Oh, and Cit should always check that river, a bet is bad, did I mention that?

 Could you give a quick call/3bet range in either blind against a decent lagtag kinda player who opens like 40-50% from the button ?

I´m guessing that you are mixing it up with some hands though, but could you tell which ones you think plays better by calling or raising most of the time and why ? 

Honestly, I change it up a lot. I rarely call big pairs QQ+ or AK from the blinds, because I 3-bet so much and they're at the top end of my range.

I like calling mid pairs more than most OOP, where almost all people 3-bet them. I call because I CC a lot of blank flops, I have set value obviously, and 3-betting loses some of their value IF I get 4-bet. So, I like to call midpairs more than most. I also like to call hands like QJs where some don't. Read that thread on 3-betting QJs that I linked a while back in this thread if you haven't yet. It's sick good about why not to 3-bet QJs, and arguements that it's good to do to mix up your play. I like 3-betting 56s type hands because often it's too hard to CC profitably, and there is deception when I hit flops, and I have no showdown value without improving, so it plays better with the lead.

Meh, that's the best I can do. Too much of it has to do with who is opening and where from and what our short history has been. I mix it up like crazy, definitely have to at midstakes.

Oh, and 3-bet a little more from the bb, especially if the bb is tricky when you're the sb. And squeeze, do it with air quite a bit, not really with medium or small pairs that can win big pots after the flop.

 How do you adjust your play once you're playing for 200bb+?
Awesome thread btw. 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I specialize in playing very deep.

200bbs is moderately deep, so I'll cover all areas as games get bigger.

First of all, know that I believe the concept of "you have a one pair hand, it's worth 100bbs" is the dumbest [censored] thing ever. You want to put your money in with the best hand. If you have to call 150bbs on the river to pick off a bluff, then just [censored] do it, don't worry about "I have top pair no kicker, Sklansky says I'm a tool if I play it for more than 50bbs." That's pretty stupid thinking.

While it's stupid thinking, it doesn't mean you should necessarily go broke light. It's just all so player specific. Basically, you're going to want to tighten up when the real money goes in and start playing for pot control ASAP. You want to be able to dictate how big the pot is going to be, since your final "ALL IN" call is often not enough to protect you from playing for one stack.

At 200bbs, things don't change much. You start calling 3-bets more light. I laugh my ass off when button opens to 30 and I make it 100 from the sb and he folds, even though we're 200 bbs deep. If he's folding 86s there, ever, IMO he is an idiot. Those are the kinds of hands that you WANT to get 3-bet with, you are BEGGING to get 3-bet with. If I open 53s, and a blind 3-bets me, I'm going to call just about any reasonable raise if we're 2500bbs deep. I mean, I want to call with all these unlikely hands and hit a stackworthy flop. I've worked so hard to get my rep, now it's time to have my image pay off.

My biggest pot ever entailed me making quads twos with K2s in a 3-bet pot HU and 300bbs deep. It went like this:

5/10 HU. I open K2s to 25 from the button, villian 3-bets me to 110, I call. Flop is 6 2 2. He leads 180, I raise to 550, he calls. Turn is a 5. He checks, I check. River is a 2. He leads 995, I shove for 3k, he calls. 6500 dollarish pot.

Now, what does this illustrate about deepstack poker? Well, he had JJ there and IMO he went broke too light. I think he played preflop and the flop well, even the turn, but leading the river is terrible IMO. My hand DOES look like 77-TT when I chek the turn (hence, my line pwns obv) but I don't think he's getting any value out of betting the river, because I know he's never ever bluffing, and my hand is allegedly face up (as something it isn't, because I'm so tricky bwahaha). He should prob CC the river, since I can have QQ-AA too (I wouldn't 4-bet them, even this deep. I hate four betting).

Basically, you're going to want to play a whole bunch of hands for pot control. You are going to want to 4-bet AA and KK more, incase they have a strong second best hand preflop, but many times I will just see a flop with big hands deep. Play position even more deep. Don't get in trouble with a bunch of marginal hands OOP and deep, it's [censored] dangerous and costly. If it's at all possible to see flops, you're going to want to see them with hands like QJs, 57s, pocket pairs and even hands like 89o more, and hands like AJ and KT much less.

If I'm 300bbs deep with someone, they open MP, I'm calling (and can probably do so profitably, very profitbaly) from the button with 87o and no regrets. Deep stacked poker is just so sick. Don't ever play it with anyone you're afraid of, either. Playing deep with someone like Samo or Bld or Strasser would be intense, you can't ever just try and milk people for value or whatnot becuase of the room to manuever.

What I mean is, I played a hand vs Ansky HU at 10-20 live in the Bahamas. We were like 8k or so deep to start the hand. I tried to get value out of TPTK on the end after I played it slow the whole hand, and he pwned me with a river CR bluff. Really sick, because at the time 5k (about the size of the CR I guess) was a ton of money to me (still is, but less so now, if I could have made a sick read now, I might be able to call it, but 2 months ago it was more of my roll).

Live, deepest I've ever been was like 600bbs with some guy. We were going to a lot of flops, but there were no instances where we both hit flops hard. Also, you'll notice guys start jacking it up 5-10bbs preflop live. We had open raises to 150 at 10-20 regularly. I don't recommend this necessarily. I think you should absolutely raise the size of your preflop raises, especially to adjust for deepness and cut down on implied odds (pretty tough), but don't go overboard. If it takes a 10x raise preflop to get somewhere (like you're playing 2-5 live and everyone has 500 stacks and open raises to 40 or 50) then chances are you're going to want to play tight. Unless you're super deep, when you can open up.

Know that depth live plays so much more passively. I value bet half pot on the river with TP2K sooo many times to get called by an overpair or two pair. Sometimes people will say they're playing scared, but it's just the general knack for people to play more passively live and be more careful about where the money goes in.

orange · #6 11-25-2007, 03:27 PM

holy crap. im going to sticky this right now, i commend you on your hard work.

thac · #7 11-25-2007, 03:53 PM

This is very very awesome.

markuisis · #8 11-25-2007, 05:02 PM

links to range merging articles?

cooker3 · #9 11-25-2007, 06:55 PM

Wow, this is the nuts

Paul Thomson · #10 11-25-2007, 06:57 PM

tldr