Which play is the RIGHT play??

[Jobo]

Hey there. I'm Jobo. Just switched to 45-man-or-less sit & go's this week because I wanted a change-up from the micro-limit games. I've played 2 45-man tourneys, placed 1st on my first try ever, and 8th (just outta the $). I've played 3 single-table S&G's, 1st in both my first ones, and got bumped out quick this last one. My question comes from this last tourney, cuz now I'm unsure of my facts...

When you have a strong made hand on the flop, one you'd be happy to go all-in with, but there's two to a flush out as well, what is the correct play?

Hand #1 I checked 2,3o from the BB after an early position limp and cut-off limp. I flopped
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3
I wanted to go all-in here but chose to bet about 1/4 my stack and hope for a brave/overconfidant call. Instead, the EP pushed all-in. Cut-off folded. I called figuring pocket 10's woulda raised pre-flop, and pocket 2's or 3's would be very hard to have with two of each already in play. Am I supposed to fear/respect this shove? Or trust my gut, that I had best hand? Anyways, he showed [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 for the flush draw, and proceeded to hit a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river, verbally patting himself on the back.

In Hand #2 I had 5,5 on the button and limped in following two EP limpers and one cut-off limper. I thought "w00t!" when the flop came
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q
Again, I wanted to bet big or go all-in, but had to wait for the three other players. EP1 was short-stacked and went all-in, EP2 called, the CO re-raised all-in himself, to me... again, my thinking was "EP1 must have a face-card and hit top or middle pair, and chose to gamble with his. Maybe even a flush/straight draw. EP2 and CO... suited connectors? Small pocket-pair? KQo? Otherwise, with stronger cards, they'd raise pre-flop, so NOT KK or QQ." I felt my hand was best at that moment, with good odds to finish the hand strong. So I called.

their flipped cards?
EP1: [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7
EP2: [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J
CO: [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3
Me: [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5

Turn was a blank, [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7, the River... [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2

I felt I was playing again some very weak players according to all the limping, and odd bluffs and weak pocket cards revealed at showdowns durning this tourney. Because of that, their 'range' of hands could be almost anything at any time. I waited for strong cards to play with after the flop, and expected that 2-pair and trips would hold up well against draws like the ones these guys were shoving all-in for. But... I believed that drawing hands with only 2 cards to come were at a disadvantage to the cards I had. Was I, am I wrong? Who of us played these hands correctly?? And so, reversly, if I flop a strong flush draw, should I be pushing all in myself? What happened to "making the draws pay heavily for their next cards" ?

[middleweb]

Get a hand history converter from the FAQs, need to know stack sizes / blinds / etc.

[otc]

first of all you have to play thousands of these sngs to see if your profitable

hand 1: check/call flop and bet pot on turn.. fold river

[Scotty_12]

For hand 1, dont think of how you are betting in terms of your stack, think of them in terms of the potsize. With a vulnerable hand like bottom two on a coordinated board I would be looking at close to a postize bet, and hopefully stacksizes will allow a push on the turn. As played in a sng I dont think you are making a laydown here with two pair. Sorry that he sucked out .

Hand 2, since it was limped pre its difficult for you to put QQ or KK in the ranges of the threee players all in in front of you. With their action, it might make sense that they both had a king, one of them with KQ, and the other with a flush draw (or two of them with a flush draw, one with a king, etc) ... Again sorry you g ot sucked out on, but you got your money in ahead with great odds and its too bad you bricked out. Fire open another sng

As for 'who played these hands correctly'

Limping J5s, J7s in EP is junk. Limping JTs in ep is a hand im fodling, same with A3s ... getting it in behind a shove on a suited board with OESD is garbage, A3s calling postflop with NFD is not a bad play after two all ins previous - those odds are hard to argue with.

[rakemeplz]

The right play is getting your chips in with the best hand and if a flush card comes oh well. In that sense you played well and there's nothing you can do. Betting with good draws is ok too and is called a semibluff. Often your opponents dont have 2 pair or sets and it works pretty good. Stack sizes/pot sizes are important too.

[drzen]

Don't be results oriented. You are going to get sucked out on A LOT. It doesn't mean you played badly.

[Josem]

it would be a very rare situation to fold two-pair or better on the flop.

that said, betting around pot-sized bets (or raising a similar amount) is probably fine.



all you can do is bet when you have the best hand. let the poker gods worry about the rest.

[Jobo]

Thanks for the positive reinforcement. Its good to know I made the right plays, even if my betting choices might not have been summed correctly. I've yet to read anything concerning bet sizes and how to choose them, read them, etc. I have some more poker-book purchases still to make.

In regards to bet-sizes... in these s&g's you start with 1500 chips, and an initial BB of 30. Raising 3x the BB pre-flop for 90 (or is that 90 + 30 = 120?), or making a pot-sized bet after a flop with 4 limpers for, again, 120... well everyone just calls, often with garbage that manages to strike gold on the flop. There's no protecting your hand with those 'small' bets, from what I've seen so far. And then its a race to see who completes better hands on the Turn and River. In order for me to control the range of possible hands I'm up against, and to push out the weaker hands, I've noticed I have to raise 300-500 chips (even early in the tourney). Only when I want people to stick around will I raise "only" the size of the pot. It's the only way I can get reads on people too sometimes, before I've seen them play a lotta hands. Is this what "overbetting" the pot is? Because if I'm not limping in with small pocket pairs or suited connectors, then I'm raising like 5x the BB at least pre-flop, that way, I feel, I keep my opponents honest, LOL.

Ooh, wait, then I guess if I've raised PF, and had callers, the pot would be bigger, so a 'pot-sized' bet would look more reasonable... but I'll tell ya, little bets don't drive anyone off.

Of course, I often feel compelled to place continuing-bet after a garbage flop. But then the smart ones realize that, unless I have an over-pair in the pocket, I've missed the flop so they come over the top of me with a re-raise. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]*angry face!* [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] (how do I deal with that? Are they bluffing too? Call and pray that I pair one of my paint-cards? Yikes!).

As for hand converters... I've just figured them out and I'll try to use em next time. My appologies. I only find a few minutes here and there to post or read posts during the day and I've only recently located the links to the converters.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the positive reinforcement. Its good to know I made the right plays, even if my betting choices might not have been summed correctly. I've yet to read anything concerning bet sizes and how to choose them, read them, etc. I have some more poker-book purchases still to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed Miller's book "Professional No-Limit Holdem" might help, particularly his discussion of commitment, which I think if you adapt it to SNGs is very useful in thinking about how much to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to bet-sizes... in these s&g's you start with 1500 chips, and an initial BB of 30. Raising 3x the BB pre-flop for 90 (or is that 90 + 30 = 120?), or making a pot-sized bet after a flop with 4 limpers for, again, 120... well everyone just calls, often with garbage that manages to strike gold on the flop. There's no protecting your hand with those 'small' bets, from what I've seen so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

So don't make them.

[ QUOTE ]
And then its a race to see who completes better hands on the Turn and River. In order for me to control the range of possible hands I'm up against, and to push out the weaker hands, I've noticed I have to raise 300-500 chips (even early in the tourney).

[/ QUOTE ]

So long as you're playing ultratight, what's the problem?

[ QUOTE ]
Only when I want people to stick around will I raise "only" the size of the pot. It's the only way I can get reads on people too sometimes, before I've seen them play a lotta hands. Is this what "overbetting" the pot is? Because if I'm not limping in with small pocket pairs or suited connectors, then I'm raising like 5x the BB at least pre-flop, that way, I feel, I keep my opponents honest, LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds about right.

[ QUOTE ]
Ooh, wait, then I guess if I've raised PF, and had callers, the pot would be bigger, so a 'pot-sized' bet would look more reasonable... but I'll tell ya, little bets don't drive anyone off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you have hit the nail on the head. You can rarely "drive them off" if they're that loose. So what's the answer?

Bet more when you have the goods; don't bet at all when you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I often feel compelled to place continuing-bet after a garbage flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop feeling compelled to do that. If you have been called by a crowd, you are throwing money away. If you have it heads up, that's different.

[ QUOTE ]
But then the smart ones realize that, unless I have an over-pair in the pocket, I've missed the flop so they come over the top of me with a re-raise. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]*angry face!* [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] (how do I deal with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you play when you hit the flop? How do you play when you have the overpair? They can only get a read on you if they've seen you play each type of hand a different way. If you c-bet half the pot when you miss, and put in a potsized bet when you hit, you're liable to be caught out if anyone's paying attention (luckily, most don't).

A lot of players in the minis seem to go with the assumption that a biggish raise preflop is AK, and if AK has missed, their pair is good. You need to have spotted them earlier in the tourney (when they've made the same play on someone else). I cut the likelihood of this happening by making my cbets a bit more than half the pot. This makes them a worse proposition for me, but I think I win more often because of it, so it kind of evens out.

[ QUOTE ]
Are they bluffing too? Call and pray that I pair one of my paint-cards? Yikes!).

[/ QUOTE ]

If they minraise, yes, sometimes they're bluffing. They'd need reason to think you're tight though, so I think this is going to happen more after a couple of levels and less very early.

I don't know about others here, but I generally assume they have *something* and call only if I have pot odds to do so, which is a bit unlikely unless I picked up a draw as well.