AQs, BB, very first hand, and SB limp-raises

[Casper05]

oh wow I though it was CO that limp/RR...yeah I'm playing this the same. Sorry.

[bilbo-san]

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stack sizes?

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Since I just sat down, and didn't note otherwise, I think it's a general convention to assume 100BB in this spot. If I played on a 200BB site and didn't mention it, or if I was a short-stacking pushbotter and didn't mention it, then I'd say it would be fair to throw rotten tomatoes at me and berate me for leaving out that info.

[CastlesMadeASand]

ya i like a shove. if hes limping QQ+ in this spot after a limper, hes just terrible.

[DirteAA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stack sizes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I just sat down, and didn't note otherwise, I think it's a general convention to assume 100BB in this spot. If I played on a 200BB site and didn't mention it, or if I was a short-stacking pushbotter and didn't mention it, then I'd say it would be fair to throw rotten tomatoes at me and berate me for leaving out that info.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, not berating. sorry you feel that way. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I am simply asking b/c I rarely see a full stack do stuff like this and it would determine what I would do.

IME players who buy in for the full amount don't make such ridiculously odd plays like this. So that is why I ask.

I usually equate the buy in amount with the caliber of player until proven otherwise.

Anyway, I will remember that when someone doesn't include stack sizes it is the general convention that they are 100bb. Of course sometimes people just forget, we are human afterall.

I would lean towards folding though. Without any info why would we want to make this type of marginal play?

[Kermit]

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i fold

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i dont think we need to stick 100bbs in here either.

kermit

[bilbo-san]

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i fold

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i dont think we need to stick 100bbs in here either.

kermit

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So, if you saw his cards were JJ, you'd fold, because you don't want to risk 100BBs!?

The argument should be about whether or not an unknown has QQ+ here very often or not (if he does, fold is obviously best).

Or alternatively, if we agree that he has JJ or less here often, we can argue about whether a mini-4-bet is better than a push.

But simply saying "I don't like risking 100BBs" is completely dodging the question (and ignoring EV implications).

[4_2_it]

bilbo,

Against an unknown, folding is a huge leak. If the guy is bad or misplaying Doyle's Super System strategy then a limp re-raise means KK or most likely AA. The positive expectation here is not that large so I am pretty indifferent.

Obviously, we do not have any reads so mathematically if SB's range includes at least 77+ and AQ+ I am pretty certain it is +EV to shove (no poker stove at work or I'd prove it out).

[DirteAA]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.617% 33.67% 06.95% 36316824 7499124.00 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 59.383% 52.43% 06.95% 56560080 7499124.00 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Against an unknown I think it is difficult to determine whether he could hold QQ+ here. I think we don't see this situation very often so that is why I lean towards folding. If we knew villain had a slight tendency to make odd plays with less than QQ+ then I would argue for shoving.

I wouldn't want to start my session with such a high variance play when I have no idea what the villain is capable of.

This reminds me of a situation I read about playing AK tptk vs an unknown. I'm not sure who the poster was or where I read it, but he said it is probably best to fold to resistence b/c we are unsure whether the villain is capable of making the move w/ a hand we beat. He said it would be best to fold now and learn more about that villain so we can make a better decision next time we're in a pot with them.

Isn't it best to lean towards conservatism when we are up against an unknown?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.617% 33.67% 06.95% 36316824 7499124.00 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 59.383% 52.43% 06.95% 56560080 7499124.00 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }

[/ QUOTE ]

So after factoring in the money already in the pot and about 10% worth of fold equity (assume he folds maybe 99- an AQ+) shoving would appear to be +EV.

[Hince]

His range is wide enough here to shove.