I am no longer tipping the dealers at CAZ until.......(long)

[Howard Beale]

.....they either start enforcing at least SOME of the rules at least SOME of the time OR people on here tell me that I'm out of line. I'm talking about players flashing cards, discussing the hand while it's in progress, declaring what they folded, telling people that they would've hit the flop big if there hadn't been a raise, etc, etc. I don't consider myself a nit and I don't want to be a table captain. I'm generally a get-along, go-along type. I used to say things to players that I thought were acting badly but it was like trying to hold back the tide so now I keep quiet. I have spoken to many floormen and the person who runs the dealer meetings on numerous occasions. A few months ago I approached a floorperson who was sitting with a few dealers waiting for their shift to start and complained. She, and the dealers, all told me that it was no use, there was nothing they could do. I'm not making that up. So, I've been on a slow burn for a long time.

Here's what has set me off:

The other night I'm sitting between 2 players who are apparently friends. EP raises and it's folded to the guy on my left. He shows his friend the A-Qo that he's about to fold. His friend says 'WHAT? That's the best hand, don't fold!' The first guy says 'Want to bet?' and they both put up $10 to the side and the guy mucks his A-Qo. Flop brings an Ace and the first guy says 'See?' Dealer says nothing.

The other night it's folded around to the button who takes a few seconds deciding what he wants to do. SB wants to chop and shows button his A-3o hand and button folds. Never mind that for all SB knows the BB may have a big hand and WANTS the button to raise. I'm sitting next to the dealer who I've known for years and I ask him quietly if he doesn't think he should say something about that. He says 'What should I say?' 'How about: Please don't do that?' 'I'm very uncomfortable in these situations saying anything.' Ok, then don't' I tell him but then he mumbles something to the SB who shruged it off.

The final straw:

Today the usual shenanigans are going on. A BIG action hand comes down. I'm in the 7 seat and out of the hand. 6 players are really going at it with the 8 seat driving the action. The 9 seat is his buddy (they don't bet each other) and is out of the hand. At the river the board pairs and the 1 seat bets out and it's folded to the 8 seat who is agonizing for 10 seconds and it's apparent that he wants to call real bad. Finally the 9 seat tells him 'good fold' and he mucks. The dealer, who is good in that he deals a fast and accurate game says nothing.

And then it hit me. I hate that the dealers aren't enforcing ANY of the player behavior rules (however you want to put it) and I am tipping them at least $5,000/yr and that I'm NOT GOING TO TIP THEM ANYMORE UNTIL I GET WHAT I'M PAYING FOR, GD IT!!!!

There are many dealers who have become my personal friends and I'm not going to tip them either. I got some very strange looks from players and dealers today and not one asked my why I'm suddenly not tipping. If they do ask I'm going to tell them exactly why and see if any good comes of it which I don't think if will. I'm not going to lobby anybody else to not tip, I'm just going to do my thing. Personally, I expect to save $5,000/yr now, and I am NOT going to feel 'guilty' about it at all.

Unless, as I said, the people on here tell me that I'm way out of line.

[rbenuck4]

Situation #1...Huge infraction

Situation #2...Very minor infraction

Situation #3...Somewhere in between #1 and #2, though closer to #1.

Your best move. Speak up before you stop tipping. Let the dealers know that they need to do a better job policing the table, or let the pit know. If any dealers give you attitude about it, stop tipping that particular dealer.

BTW, what limits is this occurring at? If its at 2-4 limit, I'd say stop being such a nit as these are all amateurs who probably just don't know poker etiquette that well.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation #1...Huge infraction

Situation #2...Very minor infraction

Situation #3...Somewhere in between #1 and #2, though closer to #1.

Your best move. Speak up before you stop tipping. Let the dealers know that they need to do a better job policing the table, or let the pit know. If any dealers give you attitude about it, stop tipping that particular dealer.

BTW, what limits is this occurring at? If its at 2-4 limit, I'd say stop being such a nit as these are all amateurs who probably just don't know poker etiquette that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

20-40 and I've complained plenty enough already to the dealers, the floor and the managers. To heck with them all. I spoke just the other day to the manager who runs the dealer meetings. I also spoke to a dealer who reads and posts here and who I consider a friend. I told him that I'm not going to tip him or anybody else (and I'm very friendly with many dealers) and I asked him to let me know if it even gets brought up at the next dealer meeting as I was promised. We'll see.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

Unless, as I said, the people on here tell me that I'm way out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You were not out of line. It's your money, you tip if you feel you want to, don't tip if you don't want to.

On a side note:

Let the flame war begin, which it undoubtedly will.

[Red Stine]

Same thing is happening only worse at Diamond Lil's in Renton Washington.

Avoid that game unless you're one of the family.

[bav]

Toke each time a dealer enforces a rule.

[Hass]

I guess this kind of stuff does not bother me like it bothers you.

I understand what you are saying and there are many things that should be said.

I would not want to draw attention to myself, and as you know I'm very quiet, and as you said "too young to have any good stories."

There is only one dealer that I do not ever tip, and it is because the guy is the biggest ass hole on the planet.

I'm shocked to hear that you have said something to so many people and they don't do anything. But they might think that they have the ability to let these things slide being that they are the only card room in the state (that I know of) that spreads 20/40 and higher. They may think that if you're going to play then this is the only place, whether you like the rules (or the way they are inforced) or not.

Haven't had much time to play lately, hope to make it out more next month.


Oh and I think things like this only bother me if I'm in the hand. Probably a bad way to think of it though.

[pokerswami]

[ QUOTE ]
I got some very strange looks from players and dealers today and not one asked my why I'm suddenly not tipping. If they do ask I'm going to tell them exactly why and see if any good comes of it which I don't think if will.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they don't know why you're not tipping, then the negative reinforcement isn't likely to produce the results you desire. However, if they do see you're willing to follow through with not tipping, then when they come to know the reason why they'll at least take you seriously.

Of course, they may not change, but you can definitely make a difference.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this kind of stuff does not bother me like it bothers you.

I understand what you are saying and there are many things that should be said.

I would not want to draw attention to myself, and as you know I'm very quiet, and as you said "too young to have any good stories."

There is only one dealer that I do not ever tip, and it is because the guy is the biggest ass hole on the planet.

I'm shocked to hear that you have said something to so many people and they don't do anything. But they might think that they have the ability to let these things slide being that they are the only card room in the state (that I know of) that spreads 20/40 and higher. They may think that if you're going to play then this is the only place, whether you like the rules (or the way they are inforced) or not.

Haven't had much time to play lately, hope to make it out more next month.


Oh and I think things like this only bother me if I'm in the hand. Probably a bad way to think of it though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, did I actually tell you you were too young to have any good stories? Sorry about that. What was I thinking? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Anyway, I've been talking and complaining for years. At the same time I'd given up on trying to tell the other players what to do. First because it does no good. Second because it makes me the jerk. Third it makes me stand out and fourth because it's not supposed to be my job. If I was the guy w/ the full house in that last example or the BB in #2 who just happened to 'wake up' w/ Kings I'd be ticked-off and so should anybody else. It's not as if I'm asking for anything outlandish. I don't want to suck the fun out of the game and I don't want to make the game deadly serious. What I WOULD like is that some sort of order be maintained rather than the free-for-all that it's become. I might as well just start banging the table and jumping out of my seat if I would've floped good had I not folded along w/ the rest of them and see how THEY like it.

Lastly, management has tried to fix a couple of things:

Sometime back I came on here and posted CAZ's new IWTSTH rule. A player had to call a floor person to explain why he wanted to see a hand. I made a big, congratulatory post about it that I had to come back THE VERY NEXT DAY and recant because the new rule lasted just that long before management folded like a cheap suitcase to the player pressure.

About 6 months ago I was astounded to see (within a few minutes of sitting in) the dealers telling everybody to stop flashing thier cards before folding. All the dealers were doing it, apparently at managements direction. THAT lasted for 3 days.

The heck w/ them. Call me a nit, a putz, a jerk, I DON'T CARE! Sooner or later the dealers that I know very well are going to start asking me why I'm not tipping and they can take my answer back into the break room with them. A few of them I'll 'catch up to' at Christmas time but only a few.

[tuq]

Howard,

LOL, wow. A couple of those are terrible.

BTW, why do you prefer CAZ over the Fort when you live in Fountain Hills? Are the games that much better? Also, didn't you live in like Litchfield Park as of just last summer? What happened with that?

I played most of my B&M poker at CAZ and BEFORE I ever even registered here. Mostly just 3/6 and 4/8 at CAZ and I did stuff that today makes me cringe. Sitting next to a friend, showing him my cards when only I was still in the hand, being a stupid ass table captain at times, just dumb stuff I don't do today. I'm not delusional when I say I'm slightly ahead in my B&M career, but at a very small rate.

I remember a friend of mine sitting next to me made a royal flush on either the flop or turn one time, just ridiculous luck, and couldn't help but show it to me. I kept my cool, it turns out he was in a hand with a guy with kings full, huge tease because it was nearly the BB jackpot cuz the board had paired jacks. In retrospect he probably shouldn't have shown me his cards but he was so excited he couldn't help himself.