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#11
03-22-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
errrrr i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop the rest are all pretty standard [/ QUOTE ] Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here. Rob 
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#12
03-22-2007, 07:26 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on the screwplay in the first hand? It is my opinion after a year of 5/10 that it's not a good play. [/ QUOTE ] I think once he calls the flop he's generally folding the turn a fair amount, but if he checks behind I'll get an extra bet from pairs frequently and the vast majority of the time people don't fold to checkraises in these games anyway. I don't know what in your experience would lead you to believe that screwplaying the turn here is bad at all. Saying that "after a year of 5/10 it's not a good play" generally leads me to believe that you're probably not paying enough attention in the games that you're in to your opponents and their specific tendencies, FWIW. This particular hand occurred a while into our playing together (about 45 minutes) and I felt fairly comfortable that it was the best play to get bets out of him as he'd call down with Ax on the turn, not raise, and he'd bluff that card a fair portion of the time. He also seemed inclined, had he not raised the flop with 66 (I'm almost sure he would have), to call down anyway. He didn't seem to be the sort to check behind pairs very often. Rob
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#13
03-22-2007, 07:55 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] errrrr i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop the rest are all pretty standard [/ QUOTE ] Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here. Rob [/ QUOTE ] yeah its okay, im not denying that. its just that its less than optimal to just playing the hand straight up and capping it. meta capping is good too ^_^
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#14
03-22-2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] errrrr i think you have to b/c, i dont want to risk a c/r/c tho maybe it wouldnt be too bad hand 3 is less than optimal... just cap it preflop and bet any flop the rest are all pretty standard [/ QUOTE ] Hand 3 actually occured before most of the rest of the others. At that point he hadn't done too much spewmonkey stuff. So it's definitely far from standard and I was going to c/r/calldown most turn cards but the K left less of a chance he'd continue to try to bluff me if I put in extra bets and also gave more potential "bluffing" equity to his garbage hands. Since I had no indications at the time that he was maniacal, just that he might be a bit goofy, I'm pretty confident my line works well here. Rob [/ QUOTE ] yeah its okay, im not denying that. its just that its less than optimal to just playing the hand straight up and capping it. meta capping is good too ^_^ [/ QUOTE ] Admit it: you just like putting in lots of bets no matter what (I've noticed that about you). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Rob
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#15
03-22-2007, 08:28 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Can you elaborate on the screwplay in the first hand? It is my opinion after a year of 5/10 that it's not a good play. [/ QUOTE ] I think once he calls the flop he's generally folding the turn a fair amount, but if he checks behind I'll get an extra bet from pairs frequently and the vast majority of the time people don't fold to checkraises in these games anyway. I don't know what in your experience would lead you to believe that screwplaying the turn here is bad at all. Saying that "after a year of 5/10 it's not a good play" generally leads me to believe that you're probably not paying enough attention in the games that you're in to your opponents and their specific tendencies, FWIW. This particular hand occurred a while into our playing together (about 45 minutes) and I felt fairly comfortable that it was the best play to get bets out of him as he'd call down with Ax on the turn, not raise, and he'd bluff that card a fair portion of the time. He also seemed inclined, had he not raised the flop with 66 (I'm almost sure he would have), to call down anyway. He didn't seem to be the sort to check behind pairs very often. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Yur right I rarely have that specific of a read; don't know how to argue if you know the guy that well. I just think the % of mindless "zomg he checked, must bet" Lags has decreased in favor of those that have played enough hands to realize nobody ever C/F's this turn when they initiative. I think betting allows him to make bigger mistakes like loose calldowns, semibluff/FSD raises, etc and I much prefer a sexy vs. "calldown w/ Ax" players. JMO
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#16
03-23-2007, 07:34 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
Well, this one didn't generate a lot of discussion. Based on his previous play of flush draws on the flop and his play of top pair in general, I didn't think he had Ax or a flush draw, but I did think there was a good shot that he'd make more optimistic bets than he should here. So I checked, he bet, and I checkraised. It's nice to have this move in your arsenal for a variety of reasons -- it's mostly so that you can extract value vs players who bet too often, but it also gives you the added advantage of showing that since you don't check-call with marginal hands on the river all the time, it's more difficult for opponents to place you on a range of hands when you check the river. The metavalue of it is small unless you're playing against the same player all the time, but it's still worth having, assuming your reads are good.
Rob
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#17
03-23-2007, 08:12 PM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
I think I'd play KQo like you played the K9o hand. If you are thinking of check raising the river, it is too risky if he 3 bets and I don't see much value if he finds a fold(which it doesn't look like his fold button works).
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#18
03-24-2007, 03:26 AM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd play KQo like you played the K9o hand. If you are thinking of check raising the river, it is too risky if he 3 bets and I don't see much value if he finds a fold(which it doesn't look like his fold button works). [/ QUOTE ] The K9o is a very different hand given that I have position.
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#20
03-24-2007, 04:34 AM
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Re: 4 hands from an opponent, followed by a river decision...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Well, this one didn't generate a lot of discussion. [/ QUOTE ] How often do you check-raise the river like this for value? [/ QUOTE ] Rarely. The constellations rarely align well enough for me to feel that it's the best play though I tend to do it more in HU matches and in 3-handed games, and less as the games get more and more full.
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