Again on Nut low only draws and a note on cheating.

[Usagi_yo]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post10671318

I asked this question a while back and got various answers. The most interesting one is being exploited by others because of this.

I don't think this holds true. I've noticed where I play that almost nobody else folds Nut low draw or nut low with absolutely no high chance,

This would be an example:

You As2c4s9d
Flop 7c8cKd

This hand is junk in a heavy action multi-way flop.

On the river, you have

As2h4c9s with a board of 7c8cKh6sJd, faced with a pot sized bet and a pot size raise in front of you, it's a loser.

It's not even positional dependent. I've had nut lows only in front, in back, doesn't matter. If I bet first, the other nut low may raise, making my loss worse, or if I'm in back and if I simply just call, its quartersville.

I've even tried "getting in there first" vs a knowledgable player who I correctly put on nut low, and they still call or raise. I gather you should always have somethign for high, the more players in ,then the stronger it should be.

I think AK for high with nut low vs heads up player who has been inclined to just call along is about the minimum I'm betting

Please note though, this does not include hands where I'm playing nut low and representing a monster vs a mediocre hand mediocre player. If I think my opponant is marginal, and I have a nut low made with no possible high, but there are some scare cards there, then I'm playing them against the opposition.

Now, on another topic. Cheating online. I'm not going to mention where (yet), or who (yet), but here is what I suspect and things to look for.

Online cheating by pro's is hard to identify. You won't find them in big or even middle limit games. You won't find them ramming and hamming trapping other players in the pot.

You will see a player who has a phenominal showdown win rate with good to very good hands. High 80's. You will see the player have a "hit" rate on their redraws to high, at a much higher then expected value. You will see this player win virtually every *night*. Hundreds of $$$ in simple .50 - $1 blind PL games. You will *never* catch this player on a bluff. You will see this player play with the same pool of 7, possibly 8 other names in the game with him at the same time. These other players will not do as well as the primary player, but their wins will be moderate to small. You will often see these other players with "freak" hands.

Whats going on?

Here is my theory.

Primary player plays good and tight. Yet is not a nut peddler when there are still cards to come -- meaning will but substantial money in with lows+draw. Which is understandable, yet the hit rate is much greater then it should be and has been for 3 months running now.

He plays with a secondary and quite often a tertiary player out of a pool of about 7 other names. They play in small PL games only. Because questions would be asked at the higher limits -- where they are apt to run into some very good and knowledgable players who see whats going on, plus the amount of money they would win would attract attention.

They share hole card information. Primary player knows 12 cards out of the deck + computer assisted play (meaning hand odds vs the out cards) makes them unbeatable.

They limit the big wins to the primary player because repeat players would get drawn off when they get to know the player base and see 3 consistently big punishers playing the game -- even with mixed names.

Bottom line is, good tight play does not substantiate the primary players winnings. A plain lucky streak doesn't substantiate 3 months of $400-$1000 the primary player makes per day from the multiple games they play.

Comments? Guesses on how much edge another player has on you knowing 8 more cards that are out?

Guesses as to where this is and who it is?
(hint, I'm not restricted by U.S laws on where I play)

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
A plain lucky streak doesn't substantiate 3 months of $400-$1000 the primary player makes per day from the multiple games they play.

[/ QUOTE ]

My primary player and I make slightly more than this, and I wouldn't be able to win without knowledge of at least 8 hole cards pre-flop.

[Usagi_yo]

Not that I particulary believe you, I think my post will be read with quite a bit of grains of salt. Let me ask you this. How many games are you spreading this win across? How many player accounts do you need to pass mediocre observation from the house vs stringent observation? What is the highest limit you would try and get away with this?

I have a close relative that works in a peculair Industry. He codes software that does social network analysis -- being used of late in mmorpgs to catch virtual currency sales and virtual money laundering. I have his theory and #'s. Interested in anybody elses guestimates.

[gummy d]

You really should alert the site if you think something funny is going on. If you don't think the site will do anything you should consider releasing the info here.

[gummy d]

Dave,
I'm curious if you think you can beat 4 people colluding at a pl08 table?

[predator06]

I'm sure of it that Dave cheats...its gotta be pretty easy to sit on 12 tables controlling 4 players at each table.

Maybe that is how he has the huge 1.15 ptbb/100!!!!!

[Truthiness24]

I'm always curious about this sort of accusation. But I want to see actual numbers before I'll begin to believe you.

On another note, I'd like to see with my own eyes someone 12 or 14 table without computer assistance.

[I dunno]

[ QUOTE ]

On another note, I'd like to see with my own eyes someone 12 or 14 table without computer assistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are videos on this site of people 20-30 tabling NLHE Sit'n goes.

[You're No Daisy]

I'm assuming you play on Stars. I can guarantee you that they have the IT infrastructure in place to deal with what you're talking about. Collusion is pretty easy to catch. You should bring it up to them. If you really think this is going on, WTF are you waiting for?

AC

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure of it that Dave cheats...its gotta be pretty easy to sit on 12 tables controlling 4 players at each table.

Maybe that is how he has the huge 1.15 ptbb/100!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

What I lack in winrate, I make up for in vertical stature.

5'll > 5'1

oh snap!