Explaining why minbetting isn't good

[Elandriel]

Hi all,

I'm having trouble explaining my brother why misraising almost always is a bad thing.

He was watching casino royale where bond minraises the rich guy to 2 million on the turn and i told him thats a bad move. He said yeah, maybe but not at those stakes cause it's a lot of money. Then i tried to explain it a little and he was like yeah stats whatever that is when you play 100s of hands and that doesnt work here.

What i need is a short sentence to use to explain why minraising is a bad thing.

[SplawnDarts]

Except minraising isn't necessarily a bad thing - under certain circumstances it can be very effective both as a value bet and a bluff. In other words your brother's right, and you're wrong. Of course, there's no way to tell from your post if that's a coincidence or the standard state of affairs.

[Dale Dough]

As requested..

Your attitude is wrong. There's nothing inherently wrong with minraising. Also, minraising =/= minbetting. We're not talking about betting 1BB into a 50BB pot or something.

I don't recall the Bond hand, but I do know that every once in a while I'll throw in a minraise or a raise that's close to the minimum. It's a situational thing.

You're making it look like it's your brother's standard move. I know from playing with him that that's far from the case [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The problem is the way you put it. As you well know, statements that are black and white are always fairly easy to disprove. All you need is one counter-example. I know you said 'almost always', but even that's too strong.

Think about it. What do you do if you miss the flop and someone minraises your cbet? It's gonna cost you a lot more to fire that second barrel now - either on the flop or on the turn. A pretty cheap way for him to get you off your hand if you both have nothing, which happens often.

You can't overdo it, of course, but that goes for any move. And it has its problems when you do have something - it allows him to peel one off cheaply, which might hurt you.

I know it's not a popular move, but 'almost always wrong' is too much IMO.

[jackaaron]

Min raising while on the flop turn or river wouldn't really be wrong (obviously depending on the situation), but I think you might be referring to min raising pre-flop. I also think you're talking about NLHE. And, you're probably talking about either open min raising in NLHE (to 40, in the 10/20 as an example), or min raising limpers.

I see poor players doing this all the time, and getting stacked. You end up giving an opponent a cheap opportunity to stack you with an obscure hand. The more undisciplined the player the more likely I'll call with any 2 from the BB when a minraise comes just because I've stacked so many players. Of course, you have to hit hard, and fold all other garbage.

[Pokerlogist]

In NL a postflop minraise (compared to a full raise) is usually wrong since it is unlikey to push someone with a weak draw out of the pot. It may be okay when you have the absolute nuts and the other player seems to want to stay in the hand.


Here's a discussion that might help:

http://www.cardschat.com/f49/stop-minraising-71694/

[PokrLikeItsProse]

1) Sometimes a min-raise will push a weak draw out of the pot. Or do you always call a min-raise with an overcard pair draw on the flop?

2) You don't necessarily want to push draws out of the pot. Sometimes, you prefer that they make a call that is unprofitable (for them) and not just when you have the nuts.

[allingator]

[ QUOTE ]

What i need is a short sentence to use to explain why minraising is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

"By min raising you give your opponents good odds to call with a wide range of draws and marginal holdings which by the same token means you will be able to deduce little from their call."

Obviously you want your opponents to be making mistakes when you play against them. A min raise often gives them an easy decision and makes their call correct (or at least makes it less of a mistake). The fact that they can now make a decent call with a wide range of hands means you could be playing against almost any two cards and you are essentially playing in the dark still after your min raise. There are of course exceptions to the rule, however, it holds true the vast majority of the time.

[Woolygimp]

The only time i ever do it is when I flop a set on an incredibly non-draw existent flop. Then it's good to build a pot, so you can bet enough to get your opponent's stack in on subsequent streets.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
What i need is a short sentence to use to explain why minraising is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Minraising is wrong when it gives your opponent the proper pot or implied odds to call, based upon the odds of him improving to a better hand.

[Elandriel]

Thanks for all the response, now i see that i put it up too black and white and maybe didn't give enough information in the OP.

I do know that sometimes it's the right move and i also use it from time to time. But i meant that is was a wrong move in the bond-hand, there it's being used to get bond out of the pot, one guy who is looking even whispers "he's bluffing".

On the arguement with my brother i meant that the guy who minraised on the flop was giving 4:1 for bond to call and i told my brother that's bad because he can call with a [censored] of hands. To that my brother replied that that doesn't matter because it's so much money and stats only work over a great deal of hands.