call this bluff?

[thedustbustr]

i like your post but i dont understand what you mean by misguided aggression

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would have called river if he didnt push, probably would have called anyway but im playing on a short roll as usual

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I'm sure it was a tough fold against this guy. That's why I like the check on the turn. With the check you now go into the river with a $17 pot instead of an $80+ pot. You can now call his $10 - $15 river bet with a hand that probably wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're being results oriented, i bet the turn hoping for him to just call, i didnt even consider a potential raise until he did it (my mistake, im rusty). in the moment i decided his range was very much draws and air so i called. but you can't really use river pot size to dissuade a turn bet imo. if it goes as planned then pot is like 35 which is perfect, and i got money in against draws which are now folding.

[Dire]

I think the problem is that the bet/call and fold the river doesn't really fit.

You can:

1. Bet/call the turn and stack on just about any river.
2. Bet/fold the turn.
3. Check the turn and call any river.

Bet/calling the turn and then folding the river doesn't make alot of sense unless you read a queen or backdoor spades as a good part of his range.

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]
i like your post but i dont understand what you mean by misguided aggression

[/ QUOTE ]

in the sense that i dont agree with ur reasoning for betting the turn, and believe it to be more along the lines of a degraded strategy to the point of "throws money at pot hoping he folds or calls and checks the river"

there are numerous good but not great opponents i know that learned about aggresion being a fundamental aspect, but wasnt taught finer aspects and as a result makes common leak-ish mistakes like the HH in the OP. i just call it misguided aggression in isolation, but when done routinely through a session it makes one tagfish.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
tagfish

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[seanjay]

I'm not being results oriented. I like to think I'm exercising a little pot control.

The turn card adds a number of draws to the board in addition to the overcard to your pair. From the way you describe the villain it doesn't sound as though he's going to fold a jack or a draw to your bet. With the big pot he could be pushing the river with anything Jx, a busted draw, a pair of deuces. I'd like to be able to call a moderate river bet and win (or lose) a small pot - not be put to a decision for my stack with a pair of tens. I check that turn regardless of what I see eventually playing out on your river.

[thedustbustr]

ok so lets me more specific everyone. consensus is that if i plsy turn like i did, calling the river is +EV?


(which is why i posted, i was really itching to call)

this is a seperate question from whether my turn play sucked or not.

[seanjay]

I think the only way you should have called the turn is if you believed you were ahead and wanted to him to bluff again on the river with the full intention of calling. Otherwise, as previously stated, calling the turn and folding the river does not make sense.

EDIT: That being said calling the turn, realizing you made a mistake when he pushes the river and folding is not wrong. It's just a situation that cost you chips that could have been avoided.

[thedustbustr]

no, if that is true then it absolutely is "wrong" because lines are not on one street

[seanjay]

[ QUOTE ]
no, if that is true then it absolutely is "wrong" because lines are not on one street

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you talking about my edit re: folding the river? It was more of an aside as opposed to being related to my other posts. I was only saying that if you got yourself into a mess on the river with a poor turn call then there is nothing wrong with cutting your losses and folding - as you did in your OP. It doesn't take away from the fact that I still prefer a turn check.

I'm not sure if that's what your talking about though... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]