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  #11  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:25 PM
Mr Rick Mr Rick is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]
Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately). What would be our best plan of action? What steps should the tournament director take?

[/ QUOTE ]
1) Make sure that in your tournament rules is a rule stating "Checking down hands by agreement with one or more opponents is illegal"
2) Make sure you have a written set of rules available for all players participating.
3) As TD when you see the "gang of 7" entering your tournament scope out the tables in which 2 or more are playing and watch every hand they play together.
4) If they "soft play" a hand, make it clear to the dealer before the hand is over, that both hands must be turned over, even if one player attempts to muck his hand on the river.
5) If at any point one of the gang has the nuts vs. another member of the gang and fails to bet them by the river, show them the door immediately. Pick a time period and don't allow them to return. A time period of a month for a first offense seems reasonable to me.
6) If at any time, you think they are "soft playing" one another, based on your opinion - issue a penalty (time out). Escalate the penalties for subsequent offenses.

*) Note that it is reasonable for players to check down hands implicitly when one or more players is all-in.

If you do not stand up to these guys, they will end up being your only customers...
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:17 PM
psandman psandman is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

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I own a small poker room. We offer almost solely cash games, except for a once weekly tournament.

For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team. This last week was painful. 5 made it to the final 7. It was obvious they were not going to enter a large pot with one another. Their only goal was to eliminate the other 2.

Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately). What would be our best plan of action? What steps should the tournament director take?

Thanks,

Oscar

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it is that you can't ban them, but you think there is something else you can do. I don't see how there is something that can prevent you from barring them that wouldn't also prevent you from penalizing them or not letting them sit together.
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:49 PM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

I think I understand the situation. I would say since it is a once a week thing either do away with the tournament, lower the buy-in, or make the antes larger than they should be relative to the blinds.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:16 AM
redfisher redfisher is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]
For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team. This last week was painful. 5 made it to the final 7. It was obvious they were not going to enter a large pot with one another. Their only goal was to eliminate the other 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think this was the wrong strategy for them to take? What are the stack sizes? What's the bubble situation? What's the payout structure?

Why does the fact that 5 of them make the final table make you think they're cheating? This sounds like a home game where somebody found a soft tourney and shared it with his buddies.

I do not cheat in poker tourneys, but I thought the normal way to go about it was chip dumping to either help team members survive or to build a couple of monster stacks to compete for the big money. Softplaying just maintains the status quo.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:24 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]
I do not cheat in poker tourneys, but I thought the normal way to go about it was chip dumping to either help team members survive or to build a couple of monster stacks to compete for the big money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think tournament cheats try to keep their stacks as equal as possible. When they chip dump there are suddenly laying odds.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:56 AM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

I agree. Collusion is a very serious matter, not one you should go easy on. I'd ban all of them from entering again. They may try to whine and claim they're being unfairly singled out, but ...

The floor reserves the right to make any decision, regardless of the strict interpretation of the rules, in the interest of maintaining the fairness and integrity of the game.

Also, the floor can see any hand at any time. I'd have started looking at all these guys hands as soon as it was "painfully obvious."
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:08 AM
Rottersod Rottersod is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]

*) Note that it is reasonable for players to check down hands implicitly when one or more players is all-in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not the nuts though. If they check the nuts all the way down then it's bye-bye for one of them.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:55 AM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

Preferential soft playing is collusion, not "maintaining the status quo." When you won't bet against your buddies, but you all play hard against the rest, you are cheating and should be banned. The status of the blinds, antes, bubble, clock, or payouts are irrelevant.

Poker is an every man for themself activity. A player should not be forced to play against groups employing teamwork tactics.

Fairness and integrity are not negotiable either. I always react harshly if these are violated.

Al
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:13 AM
GeeBeeQED GeeBeeQED is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

The issue here is the card room owner sure does hate to lose rake. They hate to lose rake in the tourny or the live action that follows or on other nights. They want to take rake from players if they are cheating or not. They still benefit from raking the game. They get so tied up in not offending anybody at any time (because of the rake they are after) that the game begins to slip. I've seen it with dealers also. They don't want to enforce basic rules on the good tipper. The infractions grow. Pretty soon your card room has a reputation that quietly spreads through out the local poker community. A reputation it deserves.

Collusion like "Lets check it down". The dealer should instamuck the person that said it. If the other player agrees prior to the dealer stopping the situation, that hand should be mucked too. There can be no debate about this. I would even consider ejecting them from the room on the spot, no finish. I've seen other posters say they would bar the player also. With that I have no argument.

Don't dance around the issue, don't give them a chance to "change a little" to avoid embarasing the card room manager with their more obvious moves. That's silly. You have to take decisive and firm action. Understand you should have never let this get started to begin with. This will make it even more uncomfortable to deal with now but that is the breaks. You have to protect your card room. You've identified a problem. Set and example that will be clearly understood by everybody. When you toss one of them (or all of them) out the door, there will be no misunderstanding about the integrity of your game and you as a person.

I've greatly reduced my play in "grey" card rooms. Make no mistake that is what we are talking about here. I love the regular action close to my home. But, the problem is these unregulated games are seldom run by anybody with the concern or the testicals to keep them clean. They end up dirty at one level or another. It starts to feel like wheel spinning to me. I want to learn to beat the best level players in the world. Not how to overcome cheaters, that's a waste of my time.

Dave
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:33 AM
GeeBeeQED GeeBeeQED is offline
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Default Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]
......Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately).....

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you fear? One of them will go to the police and end your game? One of them is a relative? They are fiends of other players you don't want to lose? You won't have enough players on other live nights to fill tables? What is it you fear? Why do you seek a way to coddle a cheater? They've got you right where they want you. Your compramising the control of your game if you cannot consider all options related to them. Who's game is it anyway?

Your posting rules isn't going to change the nature of thier integrity. The problem will still be there regardless of the placebo pill you pin up on the wall. If you can't bring yourself to act on it, then why embarass yourself by posting rules to begin with? You've got to start booting them out or you'll have no effect. The loss of thier game is the only threat that might have an impact on a few of them. However, it's hard for me to consider you can change the nature of a man. He's a crook or he's not oft'times.
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