Two Plus Two Newer Archives Players having pieces of others in cash games
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#1
11-22-2007, 03:39 PM
 SA125 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peaks and Valleys Posts: 3,183
Players having pieces of others in cash games

Not sure if this is the right place for this question. If not, mod please move to right place.

Been talking with a couple of buddies of mine about a situation we encounter. It's a 10 handed cash game where one of the players sometimes has a piece of some of the other players. The number of staked players and the size of the piece varies. It may be up to 3 players and the amount is between 25-50%.

So you may have a 10 handed game where he has a piece of 3 other players with 25% of one and 50% of the other 2.

We've been discussing whether or not it's -EV to play in this game and whether it's +EV for someone to have that situation.

A typical situation is 3 handed pot with you, the staker and a guy he has 50% of. Is it correct to assume he's winning/losing 150% every time you win or lose a pot. 100% when he wins and 50% when his guy wins, and vice versa. And if so, does that give him an edge?

The assumption is no collusion at all. It's strictly a question of whether or not he has an edge in the game. Comments appreciated.
#2
11-22-2007, 07:21 PM
 Small Fry Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 761
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

I could be way off here but isn't the EV in the other players based on how they compare to the rest of the table. Their expected win rate.

So if I have 50% of a player and based on table dynamics I can expect him to make 2bb/hr then I get 50% of this. If I have 25% of another at the same table but he only expects to make .75bb/hr, so get 25% of this. Now I'm also at this table and lets say I suck so I expect to lose .5bb/hr. THanks to my stakes in the other two I can come out ahead - .75bb/hr.

For an individual hand I think you would need to take individual equities in the hand, based on each players cards, to determine the exact +/- EV potential.
#3
11-22-2007, 10:11 PM
 WotaWaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 120
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

I would be more concerned if I was one of his stakes.
If he has 50% of a guy's action, he can force them into terrible spots with very marginal hands.
He basically only need 26% equity in a preflop all in as opposed to 51% since if he loses a full buy in half of it is coming back to him anyway.
When there is already dead money in the pot this allows him to play even hands as weak as bottom pair very aggresively against his stakes if he gives himself any fold equity at all. Even if called by top pair he likely has the correct odds to draw to 2 pairs knowing half his losses come back to him.

This can impact the rst of you if you are in 3 way pots since if the staker can in any way force you out of the pot when you have a strong draw/semi strong hand and take the worst of it against his stakee with your dead money in the pot he is making a +EV move.

In short if the money meant anything to me and the game was anything other than a drunken home game with a mate bunging someone a few quid so he can get a game I wouldn't be comfortable playing.
#4
11-23-2007, 12:09 PM
 SA125 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peaks and Valleys Posts: 3,183
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

It's a limit game, but the idea of being aggressive to force others out and capitalize still apply. That isn't the question here though. It's this.

Let's say you're in a 3 handed game. The other two guys are playing the same bankroll. It's basically 2 on 1 against you. Instead of playing aggressive to force you out of pots, they just best hand you. Every hand they'll take the best one between the two of them to go against yours. Doesn't sound too good.

Now change it that, instead of them both on the same roll, one guy has 50% of the other. They aren't best handing you. The guy who has 50% of himself is playing legit and trying to win for himself.

If everyone's playing legit, does that give the guy with a 50% piece an edge on you in the game EV wise? That's the question.

I narrowed it down to 3 handed, but the reality is that it's usually the staker has a piece of at least two guys in a full game.
#5
11-23-2007, 01:12 PM
 GeeBeeQED Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 109
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

What you should be asking yourself is why this character is staking other players in the cash game. I've seen (and been) shills put in a game to keep it going. It's legit for the house to do this. However, this guy is playing with the players he's staking. He could be doing it to get the advantage of the soft play he'll face with his staked players. I guarentee you they'll play the sugardaddy softer. They'll tend to check it down when the third party has folded because there is no or less monitary reward for betting. This is going on isn't it!

There are many forms of collusion, some are unspoken yet still unethical.

I think your in a situation that if it isn't frought with cheating or playing in some unnatural way, it's a miracle like the virgin birth.

I've been in situations like this before myself. For instance a couple sits down in a game. Or two best friends sit down. I don't like it. If they are not a collusion team (most of them are not) then they will usually have a weakness of never wanting to bluff when the other is in a pot. I look for this and if I identify that this is infact the case, I'll take all their bets very seriouisly when their buddy/spouse is in the pot. Bluffing too much is a leak obvously but few consider that never bluffing is also a leak.

It does not take much for me to get up and leave a game like this. I want to play in natural games where I have the exact number of opponents as every other player. Think about it.

Dave
#6
11-23-2007, 02:35 PM
 SA125 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peaks and Valleys Posts: 3,183
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

[ QUOTE ]
They'll tend to check it down when the third party has folded because there is no or less monitary reward for betting. This is going on isn't it!

There are many forms of collusion, some are unspoken yet still unethical.

I think your in a situation that if it isn't frought with cheating or playing in some unnatural way, it's a miracle like the virgin birth.

[/ QUOTE ]

They'll make one token bet when you drop then check it down.
There's no other collusion or cheating going on.

The question is simply this. Whether or not the staker has an edge on you by having pieces of others in the game. Them soft playing each other as you point out definitely can be part of the edge I'm asking about. My buddy and I were talking strictly from a math/EV perspective though.
#7
11-27-2007, 08:56 AM
 GeeBeeQED Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 109
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

Why is a calculation required? My answer is yes, it is an advantage.

"...then check it down." Soft play is cheating. It's changing the natural movement of the chips around the table. The stronger player makes moves to keep the weaker player in the game so they can use them, use them to play thier 4 cards against your two.

A very similar situation (but not unethical) in a final table, 3 places paid, the chip leader (unless he's an idiot) wants to keep the bubble player around long as possible to he can keep stealing from the two middle stacks. In a collusive way these techniques can be used to keep your "partner" allive. Also, when the weaker partner has a chance to take chips away from the stronger partner but does not, it hurts my ev. If it's possible for any of the chips to flow to the weaker player, I want that to happen. The'll be easier to win from the weaker player of the two. Yet, how many times have I seen the weak player check down sets or fulls or nut flushes against the stronger partners hand rather than bet them out of thier chips? TOO MANY TIMES. In this way my EV is damaged.

Soft play is cheating. I don't give a cut-card what the excuse is or how they try to rationalize it. These kinds of players (although not always) are usually terrible. Your result is probably dramaticly lower than it should be because of all the suttle ways the game is altered in favor of the colluders/soft-players in the game.

I am thinking the little birdie inside is trying to allert you to something. Trying to protect you. Conciously you are resistant and want to find a way to stay in this game. Your reaching out looking for a way to justify continuing yet inside your conflicted. I'd say you can pursue this line of inquiry further and quite the conflict within somewhat but it will always be there. The fact your asking the question says to me you are aware of the likely answer.

Dave
#8
11-28-2007, 10:45 PM
 Hammerhead Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 35
Re: Players having pieces of others in cash games

[ QUOTE ]
It's a 10 handed cash game where one of the players sometimes has a piece of some of the other players. The number of staked players and the size of the piece varies. It may be up to 3 players and the amount is between 25-50%.
We've been discussing whether or not it's -EV to play in this game

[/ QUOTE ]

4 vs 1? and the 4 are softplaying against each other? You can't win this game.
-EV for you +EV for the backer.
He has built in protection, he has built in equity with every confrontation, If one of the 4 takes your money, he wins it back from them. How can he lose, unless he and the others are horrible, and that's not likely since he's backing them and he's there to make sure that they don't play poorly. I think you already knew this and that's why your asking. IMO you should Run from that game!

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