Watching others watch the flop

[Frond]

This topic is something I have wanted to get into a bit ever since I saw Private Joker mention it in some post sometime earlier in the year on the Mid-Stakes forum. Not quoting him word for word. He said something to the effect of how when the flop comes, he doesn't immediately look at the flop but he watches the other players and how they react to the flop. I did this more in my game today. Kind of interesting.

Wondering if some of you have your own theories(if any) about the players when the flop hits and their reactions to it. Do they fixate on the flop and stare at it right after they bet or call? Do they look at the flop then look away as they bet? Do they Recheck their hole cards when their are 2 suits out? Do they roll their eyes(in disgust)when all low or all cards come off?, etc etc..... Many more I'm sure

Today I noticed something from one player in my 8/16 game. This guy who was on my imm left when he would lead out on the flop, he looked like he was concentrating on one area of the 3 cards(like the very left or right side)when he bet and also when the turn hit he was still watching the same area. I watched his head and eyes move to watch the cards as they rolled off and I was able to determine what one of his cards was several times and a range of his likely holding. Try it out and watch what area of the flop they appear to be looking at right before they bet out. I wouldn't say it is a 100% effective thing to go on cause I just today noticed it for the 1st time but with this guy I was able to figure what at least one of his cards were several times. He almost appeared to be looking at a single board card

Anyone ever pick up on flop reactions before at all or have anything to add or share? Hey any little edge we can get in this game is valuable [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[One Outer]

I think that it is very useful as long as you don't put too much time into it. I find people that stare at the board a long time have usually missed (and almost universally when they haven't missed they flopped ginormous). Simple stuff like looking at their chips right after the flop comes out (usually a draw, right?), immediately looking away (usually a good flop for them), etc.

Along the same lines some people telegraph their hands by the way they bet on the flop. There's a guy who I play with regularly that shows the strength of his hand by how he puts his chips in the pot on the flop. When he tosses them he likes his hand and when he stacks them he either has a draw or not much. He also raps the table when he intends to continue after checking and saying "check" when he intends to fold (it appears most of the time) Very useful information; if only he did this on the big streeets, too (he always stacks there).

One thing that you didn't mention is to be aware of when you might be doing this yourself. Not long ago I caught myself really staring intently at the one card whenever I flopped a set and in certain situations. I had to remind myself not to stare like that. I have found the best way to avoid staring at the board is to always look where the action is.

[Frond]

Good stuff OneOuter. Thanks for your input. Yea I do'nt dwell on it but I am def. tryuing to be aware of as much as I can during a hand.

I always look at others hand language during the hand. One can cetainly pick up lots of info by just the way they are handling their cards at times: Are they getting ready to muck, do they like their hands by the way they handle their chips etc. I try and do everything the very same on every hand so nobody knows what I am going to be doing on any hand.

Agree that looking away means they like the flop after they bet.

There was one other older guy today who every time the flop would come all three low cards he would complain out loud. This was after he raised PF.

[fishyak]

Str8 out of the old school favorite, Book of Tells. This tell might be the easiest to apply. That long look is most often the sign of the whiff. I've found that checking for eyes moving from flop quickly to check the chip stack is harder to apply. So while big parts of this book are dated, it remains a good way to start looking for "classic" tells and avoiding them in yourself!

Look at the way the WSOP winner tried to move in the same, slow methodical way on each play. A sign of inTELLigence? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]


Along the same lines some people telegraph their hands by the way they bet on the flop. There's a guy who I play with regularly that shows the strength of his hand by how he puts his chips in the pot on the flop. When he tosses them he likes his hand and when he stacks them he either has a draw or not much. He also raps the table when he intends to continue after checking and saying "check" when he intends to fold (it appears most of the time) Very useful information; if only he did this on the big streeets, too (he always stacks there).


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to touch on this a bit.

Something I'm always aware of when I play live is how I myself am putting chips in the pot, checking, etc. I pay attention to when I throw chips in the pot (vs when I place them), when I rap the table vs when I say check, etc. I try as hard as possible to make sure that there is no correlation between this movement and the strength of my hand.

Just something for everyone here to pay attention to. Keep your tells to a minimum.

[Bob T.]

It try to do this when I am playing live.

One other thing that I do sometimes, especially when we see the flop headsup, is to play the hand without looking at the board.

One time I did that, and on the river, my opponent looked like the worst possible card came off, He bet, I raised, he thought a long time, and while he was thinking, I decided to look at the board, and I had made a set on the river [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Another excersize that I do in live games, is when I have a player to my left, who looks at his cards early, especially if it is a loose player, I try and predict if he is going to play or not, before I look at my hand. Usually early in the session, I don't have a good read at all on them, but as time goes by, I start getting it right more often than not.

[PorkchopDJG]

This is definitely a +EV move.
I like to watch the players when they get dealt their cards and then judge from their action how week or strong they are. Then just before it gets to me I like to look at my hand so the other players aren't staring directly at me when I first see my cards. When the flop comes out I like to watch either a preflop raiser or the better players to see if I can catch anything. I also look to see which other players are looking back at me, other opponents or just the flop.
As others have noted and Caro talks a lot about in his book, a blank stare at the flop usually means the guy missed and if he looks quickly at the flop and then either glances away or at his chips he usually has a good hand or draw.

[TheCount212]

Right, a long stare at the board usually means that the person is looking for something that isn't there. Watching others take the flop is usually a bit more instructive than watching them look at their cards.

I have read that one shouldn't look at their cards until it's their turn to play, but I disagree, because by the time it's your turn others usually have the time to watch your reaction. I look at them as soon as they're both in front of me, quickly, and then cap them whether i'm folding or not. This way I give myself more time to watch faces.

Also, like golf, i think it's good to develop a "pre-shot routine" for poker. I never say "check," I palm the table three times. I always say "raise," in a strong, low voice. I always sling my chips in the same way. Do what you think works best.. but do it the same way everytime.

Also you can't really examine more than one player at a time, so I start with the most active at the table. The rocks are easiest to spot anyway, and since they don't play junk you know where you're at most of the time.

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

I find that I can read someones hand pretty well by what they did preflop and how they react to the the flop, but this is when I'm not in the hand. It seems like I watch the wrong player when I'm in the hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think, "It looks like he missed the flop," only to have someone else raise a bet from a crazy loose player.

Note to self: You have been giving out tells pf about when you are going to call or raise. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Stop it! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Put your hand over your cards like you are going to fold no matter what.

Now back to your regularly scheduled BS.

[fishyak]

A couple of "be carefuls" (remember this is SMALL stakes)

1) The guy who refuses to look at his cards EVERY time until it is his turn just screams "young practicing pro ho." Do you want that image?
2) If your image is too tight and consistent, are you tapping on the fish tank? Will you wake the dead and will they up their scrutiny of YOUR play?

I suggest that you mix up your own "tells." DON'T be consistent. Work on being random so they can't draw a bead on when you change. We draw enough attention to us by being the max folders PF.