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  #11  
Old 09-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Salmo Trutta Salmo Trutta is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]
I put back on my sunglasses and immediately shoved out a huge stack of big chips, effectively putting both players all-in.

MP mucked after a bit of thought and the big blind started cursing and he mucked angrily.

I stacked my chips and quietly mucked my eight nine of diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! Were you born that cool or did you become that way later in life?
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2007, 11:32 PM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]
I had a similar situation at last year's WSOP, but was in your opponent's shoes. It was a significant pot and while I knew I was behind I thought I had the proper odds based on the dealer count. However, when it turned out he had significantly more chips (I think she said 10k and it was really 18k or something like that).

I called the floor over and he decided since I verbalized "call" and pushed out 10k, those chips would have to stay in the pot. He gave me the option of saving the extra 10k by folding, but I chose to call since it was now only another 10k or so. It sucked because I would have never called 20k...

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This is a horrible ruling that I am seeing more and more in places where they don't understand poker. Generally if there is a gross misunderstanding as to the size of the bet you are facing you can reconsider your action when you become aware of the actual bet size. The case in the OP is more complicated because of the action behind. In the OP I would be inclined to make the call stand because of the action behind.
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  #13  
Old 09-02-2007, 01:01 AM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

One detail was omitted that muddies the water even more in the situation here at the Beau. The dealer was asked, and also gave the incorrect amount.
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2007, 01:05 AM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

Care to offer an opinion Randy? I think there are multiple viable solutions to that floor call. There is no perfect call in that spot. Especially when the representative of the casino (dealer) offers bad information to the caller.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2007, 01:22 AM
feelixthegreek feelixthegreek is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

Johnny is correct. The dealer, trusting my count, did give the player the incorrect number.

BTW, I didn't post this as a complaint or a criticism of the decision or of the way the tournament was run. I don't have anywhere near enough large field tourney experience to make any judgments. I was just curious as to what the proper course of action is/should be.
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  #16  
Old 09-02-2007, 02:10 AM
CincyLady CincyLady is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]
I had a similar situation at last year's WSOP, but was in your opponent's shoes. It was a significant pot and while I knew I was behind I thought I had the proper odds based on the dealer count. However, when it turned out he had significantly more chips (I think she said 10k and it was really 18k or something like that).

I called the floor over and he decided since I verbalized "call" and pushed out 10k, those chips would have to stay in the pot. He gave me the option of saving the extra 10k by folding, but I chose to call since it was now only another 10k or so. It sucked because I would have never called 20k...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually how it's handled in most places, and IMO, the most fair way to do it.

The SB should of asked for a count from the dealer, as it was the SB's responsiblity to make sure their information was accurate.

FWIW, I've had the same short circuit myself before, after playing several hours, I thought I had more than I really had, when I went all in. This mostly due to the fact they had just recently colored up the chips, and I miscounted because I wasn't used to the new colors.

The others didn't ask for a physical count, but I did have 2 callers.

They check the flop, but then one guy went all in on his bottom pair on the turn.

It forced the guy with pocket 9's out of the pot as there was a king and Queen on the board as well as a 3.

I get my 10 on the turn (I had Ace/10 suited, and even with my miscounted chips, was short stacked, which is why I went all in).

Then the river was a 9. Had not the other guy pushed all in on bottom pair, I would of been out of the tourney (of course the guy with the pocket 9's was furious, and the other guy just couldn't get why what he did was wrong ... but I made sure to thank him for protecting my hand like that [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ).

When the dealer counted down my chips it was then discovered I had less than I had verbally said, to which 2 others said they would of called me hand they of known that, and one said he had a King with a bad kicker, when he folded it.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2007, 03:14 AM
Fermion5 Fermion5 is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

Can someone explain to me why you can ask the dealer to count the chips of an all in, but he's not allowed to tell you what's in the pot?
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2007, 08:47 AM
pa3lsvt pa3lsvt is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain to me why you can ask the dealer to count the chips of an all in, but he's not allowed to tell you what's in the pot?

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Because tracking the pot is the players' responsibility, but the dealer (as de facto referee) should be confirming bet amounts on all in bets by counting the player's stack when requested. You have a right to know what size bet you are facing.
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2007, 11:48 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]
Care to offer an opinion Randy? I think there are multiple viable solutions to that floor call. There is no perfect call in that spot. Especially when the representative of the casino (dealer) offers bad information to the caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no good solution in that spot. I can live with either letting him take the chips out or making him leave the chips in. How was the bet arranged. Since the dealer gave the wrong amount also I am guessing a high denomination chip wasn't easily visible. I think taking the call back if a high denomination chip is visible is fine; I am more inclined to say it remains a call if the player could have easily seen the amount of the bet. Also where were the players sitting? If it is a 30 year old with good eyesite sitting right next to the bettor I would be more inclined to make it a call and if it is an 80 year old at the opposite end of the table I would be more inclined to let him withdraw it. This is a situation where you really need to be there to make a good decision. It is also close enough that someone is going to be upset with the decision.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2007, 11:55 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Weird tournament ruling at WPT Biloxi

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
I had a similar situation at last year's WSOP, but was in your opponent's shoes. It was a significant pot and while I knew I was behind I thought I had the proper odds based on the dealer count. However, when it turned out he had significantly more chips (I think she said 10k and it was really 18k or something like that).

I called the floor over and he decided since I verbalized "call" and pushed out 10k, those chips would have to stay in the pot. He gave me the option of saving the extra 10k by folding, but I chose to call since it was now only another 10k or so. It sucked because I would have never called 20k...



This is actually how it's handled in most places, and IMO, the most fair way to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here is the rule that most places have some version of on the book.
[ QUOTE ]
12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never been in a room that had an experienced floor staff that didn't use some version of the above rule. Note: If you opened a poker room in 1994 with no experience and have never had someone that had worked in poker teach you about these things you still have almost no experience. The only reason I mention this is one of our competitors where I am now has been having poker tournaments for a long time, but they8 have been doing things wrong since the mid 90s and continue to do things wrong.
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