1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 6th, then you are forced to pay off the river unimproved, since you don't know if he is on a flush draw or not. By checking 6th you know where you are at on the river, because he is unlikely to bluff 6th after you raised on 5th.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, makes sense then. I did check, in fact, but then I felt like my hand was face up and the same money went in the pot.

I didn't consider the information I gained.

[dsaxton]

Is the information you potentially gain by checking worth the missed bet against a four-flush?

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the information you potentially gain by checking worth the missed bet against a four-flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, it is likely he has a 4 flush AND jacks, so you are only a tiny favorite.

[ACPlayer]

Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[ACPlayer]

Would you bet sixth with a four flush and jacks if checked to?

If I thought the other guy would laydown unimproved aces on the river, I would bet sixth and seventh unimproved (but I have been known to spew).

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you bet sixth with a four flush and jacks if checked to?

If I thought the other guy would laydown unimproved aces on the river, I would bet sixth and seventh unimproved (but I have been known to spew).

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting 6th w/ jacks would indeed be a spew.

Anyone who is good enough to laydown UI Aces on the river after putting in a raise on 5th is also good enough to know which players spew chip and which don't. Since you would probably have been marked as a maniac, YOU would get called on the river vs unimproved aces.

[ACPlayer]

If the Jacks aren't going to bet -- then I think you have to bet sixth rather than give the free card. One bet should go in on sixth, IMO -- better for me to bet. Even though he is correct to call sixth with the draw, it should be bet.

Better to be passive on seventh and check - call, aces up and only bet-call trip aces or better or be really passive and check call anything other than a full house. This way you earn some money on sixth.

I will let you decide if I bet JJ with a four flush when we play or if I bet unimproved on seventh to get you to fold Aces after checking sixth. I think Jeff had a thread long ago about checking sixth and betting seventh as a bluff unimproved.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in GENERAL it is correct to bet instead of check calling if a raise is unlikely. However, as the preceding discussion has shown, this is CLEARLY not a general situation.

Lets see how we do with your line vs various hands (assuming he checks two pair UI on the river) and how my line does:

-Opponent misses flush draw and hero is UI: both lines loss 1 bet
-he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he makes flush: your line -3BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he rags river: your line +1BB, my line +0 BB
-he has 2 pair, neither improve: both lines lose 1B, if op bets river, your line loses 2Bs
-he has 2p, hero improves: both lines +2Bs
-he has 2 p and fills:both lines lose 3Bs

Throw in the fact that our kickers are dead, making it less likely for us to improve, and it is very clear that check calling 6th and then playing the river I a suggest is best.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in GENERAL it is correct to bet instead of check calling if a raise is unlikely. However, as the preceding discussion has shown, this is CLEARLY not a general situation.

Lets see how we do with your line vs various hands (assuming he checks two pair UI on the river) and how my line does:

-Opponent misses flush draw and hero is UI: both lines loss 1 bet
-he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he makes flush: your line -3BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he rags river: your line +1BB, my line +0 BB
-he has 2 pair, neither improve: both lines lose 1B, if op bets river, your line loses 2Bs
-he has 2p, hero improves: both lines +2Bs
-he has 2 p and fills:both lines lose 3Bs

Throw in the fact that our kickers are dead, making it less likely for us to improve, and it is very clear that check calling 6th and then playing the river I a suggest is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, first we have only one side card gone (the six). Fours and tens are live. He has three flush cards that are gone.
[ QUOTE ]
he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis makes no sense to me. Do you check down AA from fourth if the guy has a flush draw? After all you will save bets when he makes his draw.

So, I charge him to draw out and take the chance that he has two pairs (in which case, I will draw out on him). Note that on fifth I have 9 cards that make me 2 pair or better, and on sixth I have 12 cards (if i catch live) to make 2 pair or better. He has 6 clubs he can catch and a Jack (giving him JJ with a flush draw, his most likely hand) to beat our aces up.

I like betting.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Jacks aren't going to bet -- then I think you have to bet sixth rather than give the free card. One bet should go in on sixth, IMO -- better for me to bet. Even though he is correct to call sixth with the draw, it should be bet.

Better to be passive on seventh and check - call, aces up and only bet-call trip aces or better or be really passive and check call anything other than a full house. This way you earn some money on sixth.

I will let you decide if I bet JJ with a four flush when we play or if I bet unimproved on seventh to get you to fold Aces after checking sixth. I think Jeff had a thread long ago about checking sixth and betting seventh as a bluff unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are about even money vs a 4 flush and jacks (your cards are dead, do some sims on twodimes.net)

Check calling the river is correct if he check behind 6th because that way you know he is going for a flush. If he bets 6th, then he probably is on 2 pair. He is likely to check behind 2 pair on the river, so you need to bet aces up in this case. As you can see, by betting 6th, the correct play on 7th with Aces up is clear...if you had bet, then you are just guessing on 7th.

Yes, I remember that thread. I was the one who suggested checking 6th and then bluffing the river. If you recall I was talking about playing 75/150 LIVE which is a MUCH different game than 1/2 online. (Live players tend to fold too much on the river).