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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:40 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
honestly I don't care.

I mean here in US thousands of people are raped every day in prison and nobody cares. hell, most people think it's great.



Serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. most people think they're criminals and deserve it.

my point is we americans/westerners should clean our own house before looking to impose our supposed civilized values on others.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is saying prisoners deserved to be raped. But if it's possible to be less deserving of such a fate then this girl is. Also...

The rape that occurs in our prisons is done at the hands of a few rogue degenerates and not condoned by our government or it's citizens. A HUGE difference. So your anaolgy is terrible!
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:49 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
But this (I thought) is Saudi Arabia. For some reason I thought they were more reformed than most. Maybe that's just because of their relation with the US.

I love the quote! I wish more moderate Muslims would speak out about matter like this. I'd feel a little easier if they did.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear Saudi Arabia is pretty bad.

Moderate muslims in the UK speak out a lot. I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous.

chez
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:53 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

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I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Let's not act like these actions are representative of the majority of Islam.

I'm also fairly sure that mocking Saudi Arabians isn't going to change their mind on this issue. All that would seem to do is create outrage and anger toward us. However, I guess it's also possible that nothing will change minds.
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:57 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Let's not act like these actions are representative of the majority of Islam.

I'm also fairly sure that mocking Saudi Arabians isn't going to change their mind on this issue. All that would seem to do is create outrage and anger toward us. However, I guess it's also possible that nothing will change minds.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:00 PM
PLOlover PLOlover is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
The rape that occurs in our prisons is done at the hands of a few rogue degenerates and not condoned by our government or it's citizens. A HUGE difference. So your anaolgy is terrible!

[/ QUOTE ]

simply not true. the prison staff and warden and the mental health guys all know it goes on and they look the other way and let it go on and in extreme cases they actively enable it.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:04 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]

And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds.

Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:08 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds.

Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me.

So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in.

But that isnt what happens and I should know better.
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:43 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me.

The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs.

And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:47 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]

You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me.

So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in.

But that isnt what happens and I should know better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's basically what I'm getting at. Because of your position as an outsider and because of a lot of past history, bad relations, mistrust, etc, even if you specify that you are talking about "bad Muslims" many people on both sides will simply hear "Muslims". I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:50 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

<font color="blue">But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. </font>

But they DO believe those things! Even if they wouldn't be willing to flog and sentence a woman after being gang raped, they believe in oppressing women. Why is the degree of that oppression so important to you, instead of the oppression itself?
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