Tough spot early in FTP 1k...

[BeL0WaB0Ve]

*sidenote before the hand*

So I'm just starting to post here more and getting used to the way you guys do things here. When I post HH's I give all information, including players' names while I notice you guys often edit the names to instead read MP1, CO, Bu, hero, villain etc. Is there a reason its done this way?

Ok, on to the hand...


Full Tilt Poker Game #2900637234: $1K Monday (21236015), Table 11 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:34:32 ET - 2007/07/09
Seat 1: sprediton (3,525)
Seat 2: wqt6470 (2,650)
Seat 3: GetPWN3D (1,880)
Seat 4: RayMcGraw (3,185)
Seat 5: Believer8219 (3,265)
Seat 6: voff voff voff (4,295)
Seat 7: winnaseat (3,455)
Seat 8: mrcall912 (2,470)
Seat 9: vegan213 (2,275)
GetPWN3D posts the small blind of 20
RayMcGraw posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GetPWN3D [Kc 4c]
Believer8219 folds
voff voff voff has 15 seconds left to act
voff voff voff calls 40
winnaseat folds
mrcall912 calls 40
vegan213 calls 40
sprediton folds
wqt6470 calls 40
GetPWN3D calls 20
RayMcGraw checks
*** FLOP *** [4d 9c 2s]
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D bets 100
RayMcGraw folds
voff voff voff calls 100
mrcall912 folds
vegan213 calls 100
wqt6470 folds

Pre-flop- VVV open limps UTG+1, I've had alot of experience with him and found this play to be odd for him. This starts the mandatory limp parade, I complete from the SB and we see a flop 6 handed.

Flop- I make my fairly standard stab lead for less then half the pot with middle pair on a very dry uncoordinated board. The plan is to go into shutdown mode if I face any heat on flop, and shutdown turn if called and I don't improve my hand or pick up back door flushdraw.

*** TURN *** [4d 9c 2s] [4s]
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D checks
voff voff voff has 15 seconds left to act
voff voff voff bets 200
vegan213 raises to 560
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D has requested TIME

This looks like the perfect turn card for me. Normally I would continue betting here but I know both VVV and Vegan and I'm pretty sure checking the turn is the best way for me to gain chips. I've known both of these players to be aggressive and I'm confident one of them will bet.

VVV obliges me, leading for a smallish bet like my flop stab, and I'm not too concerned with him. Pre-flop I felt he may have limped a big pair, but I think he raises flop w/ OP, so now I think he could have somekind of suited 9, or a mid pair like 55-88, but 22 is definite possibility w/ flop FC and smallish turn lead trying to build some kind of pot.

So now it gets tricky. I feel this table was pretty weak by the standard of the normal FTP 1k tables, and the 2 players I'm involved in the hand with are definitely 2 of the tougher players at the table, and neither of them have cleary identified their hands.

Now Vegan puts in a smallish raise, which could be him sniffing out VVV's bet as a stab or a real hand. Giving him credit for a real hand, I think his range is 9s8s/9s7s/9sTs giving him a flush draw to go with top pair, A4s, 22, or a small suited 4 (34s-74s) which he decided to overlimp in position. It's 560 to me, and I have 1,740 left, enough to cripple Vegan while VVV has us both covered.

Options-

1. Flat the 560

2. I got trips w/ 2nd kicker, NH WP GG ME bc I'm all-in

3. Fold

Seems like #2 would be standard, #1 seems pretty bad, and I'm not sold that #3 is not an option or whether it would be worse then flatting here OOP. Given the stacks I don't have any chips to try and gain more info.

Thoughts?

BeL0W

[0evg0]

This is really long and I'll get to the rest of it later, but the flop lead sucks unless you realize you are bluffing and are willing to do whatever it takes to get 55-88 to fold.

And if you are going to do that, leading half-pot is not the way to do it.

I'm really struggling for a time when donking a limped pot from SB for less than half-pot is EVER good.

[TheNewf]

I don't care for the flop lead but once you do I think you should lead the turn. It sure looks like one of them has 99 or 22 but I don't know much about these players. I don't think you can call so it's between push and fold, not sure if I can get away from this one though it's very read dependent.

[Swami54]

#2

Board: 4d 9c 2s 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.000% 50.00% 00.00% 154 0.00 { Kc4c }
Hand 1: 50.000% 50.00% 00.00% 154 0.00 { 22, As4s, Ts9s, 9s8s, 9s7s, 5s3s, 4s3s }

I realize the pokerstove calcs are for one player but if that's his range then I think you have to put it in. I'm not sure how much fold equity you have but it looks as if there is roughly $1200 in the pot. Knowing a little about your style I doubt a push will get anyone to fold which given your likelihood of being ahead is another reason to get it in on this turn and get back to a decent stack size.

[RichC.]

I dont think you can ever fold here, and flat calling seems really bad and tells everyone you have a monster already and unless they improve on the river you get no more action.

[Ansky]

below-- Tough spot. I don't hate the flop lead like the above posts, as I think it is quite good as a part of your game as a whole. I don't think folding is an option, and pushing is certainly better than folding. If he has a worse hand, a call is clearly worse because I really doubt he will bluff the river with anything, and he calls w/ any trips if u bomb the turn I assume. If he has a big draw, quite often he will call your shove, so I think you would rather shove vs that hand as well.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

i'd shove quick and not think about it, but think about it with 34 for sure

edit: this would also be much tougher if effective was 3000-4500

[ZJ123]

below people post hand with Hero, UTG, etc b/c they put it into a converter to make it easier to read, not to hide peoples names. As played i think i shove and also i dont hate the flop lead as much as everyone else...

[BeL0WaB0Ve]

I understand why most wouldn't like the flop lead, but it's a play I use often from the blinds in limped pots and it's pretty effective. I'd also lead a big hand here like 2 pair or a set, which makes the play even more effective.

I agree with everything you said in your above post Ansky, except for "folding is not an option". I'm not entirely sold that it isn't an option which is what lead me to posting this.

This definitely would be an extremely more difficult spot if the effective stacks were 3k-4k.

BeL0W

[mastr]

hey below, what do they think of your image and more importantly do they think you can donk the flop with absolute air... Can your hand be something like 35ss that you donked, picked up a mega draw and are now going foro the check raise. This also isn't too believable due to the fact that bet/3bet would prob even be better with that hand.

Correcet me if i'm wrong but if you shove, aren't we near the bottom of our range here? are you felting 45? and do your opps know any of these answers?

At first I was thinking shove obv, but i like it less and less the more I think about it, although its probably necessary due to the small stacks.

Long story short, despite all misgivings I still think its a shove.