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  #1  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:27 AM
lanyi lanyi is offline
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Default Playing overcards on the flop

A debate I have with myself on playing overcards on the flop for TP outs. The table was relatively loose with a few donks and a few tighter players. I had very little reads on this specifci villain. Stats after 19 hands (not much) are 53/21/1.17 which seem to imply a loose player. I got the impression his starting hand requirements were low from what I could see.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

At this point I was raising to try and push out any flush draws. I was putting the BB on a pairing wither the 9 or J and figured if I was HU against him then all my TP outs were full outs and good to win. The fact I had 2 calls was not my plan.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Should I have raised at this spot? I checked for the free card to try and pair on the river.

River: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

The River is my biggest dilema. Having put the BB on a pair was is still worth the call with A high on the chance he was rasing with zip?
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:32 AM
tyler_cracker tyler_cracker is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

[ QUOTE ]
I was raising to try and push out any flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. would *you* fold a flush draw on the flop?

what do you beat on the river? a busted flush draw? oh wait. how about 54? oops.
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:06 AM
LateFlag LateFlag is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

Automatically raising the flop with overcards is a serious mistake. On this particular hand it's okay as a free card play, though calling is still often better. Your reasoning is seriously flawed. No flush draw is ever folding no matter how many bets you put in on this flop. In theory, a flush draw should be raising you back for value.

BB bet the river into two opponents. If it was heads-up, I might call because you induced a bluff on the turn, but this pot was at least sort of protected, so I doubt villain is bluffing 1 time in 7.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:10 AM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

raising flop to push out flush draws for 1 bet = lol.

calling the river even though every single draw got there = double lol
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:34 AM
LukeSLTS LukeSLTS is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

Against two opponents I am just calling on this flop. If the action of the tunr goes bet, call, then you can fold the turn.

The way you played it was OK until the river call. You are not getting bet into by a worse hand on that river. Do you think the BB donked AQ on the flop?
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:27 PM
lanyi lanyi is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

First to all the "LOL" responders I'm glad I was able to offer some comic releif. Granted that my reasoning was flawed and I didn't acount for the pod odds correctly but a simple indication would have sufficed. Being new to the game it takes time to learn and I had thought posting hands played badly was one of the recommended ways to get educated.

For those who did respond without the pot shots thanks. I really appreciate the feedback.

Luke to answer your question - I did not have many reads on BB but had the impression he was very loose. I figured he could have donked with Ace rag trying to bluff and I reasoned in the split moment that 7 to 1 from the pot was enough to call. In hindsight this does conflict with my early assumption he paired the board and therefore I should have folded. Second guessing myself in this spot is probably my problem.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:52 PM
HermannTL HermannTL is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

Overcards present difficult problems of the "how good are your postflop skills" variety. I get into trouble with them myself and I'm sure all newbies do. I remember a quote from Matthew Hilger in ITH: "Drawing to overcards is a marginal decision at best, even when almost all the conditions are perfect. Most beginning players will save money by never calling to overcards." I think I might add to that "...much less raising." I know full well that always folding overcards leaves money on the table, but playing them poorly leaves money on the table for everybody else.
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:52 PM
Dankenstein Dankenstein is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

Groungae
You can call here at best. Your raise isn't giving you any fold equity in this spot and is never pushing out a flush draw here.

If I had raised that flop I would follow through on the turn and bet/fold when it is checked to me. Since you're most likely behind here though taking the free card isn't that bad of an option.

I fold the river. Ace high is rarely good here.
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:39 PM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

[ QUOTE ]


At this point I was raising to try and push out any flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's stop here.

This will happen like 0% of the time.

Plus, you won't likely even be headsup - They are not likely both to be on flush draws - and absent an overcard on that board, no one is folding.

ON the turn, don't bet (which you didn't) it will accomplish nothing but losing one BB.

On River - BB led the flop, called your raise, and bet into two players on the river. You only need to be right like 8ish% of the time to call - but I'd say your good here like 1 time out of 100 and that's probably very generous

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:42 PM
bravos1 bravos1 is offline
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Default Re: Playing overcards on the flop

[ QUOTE ]
First to all the "LOL" responders I'm glad I was able to offer some comic releif. Granted that my reasoning was flawed and I didn't acount for the pod odds correctly but a simple indication would have sufficed. Being new to the game it takes time to learn and I had thought posting hands played badly was one of the recommended ways to get educated.

For those who did respond without the pot shots thanks. I really appreciate the feedback.

Luke to answer your question - I did not have many reads on BB but had the impression he was very loose. I figured he could have donked with Ace rag trying to bluff and I reasoned in the split moment that 7 to 1 from the pot was enough to call. In hindsight this does conflict with my early assumption he paired the board and therefore I should have folded. Second guessing myself in this spot is probably my problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of the LOL posters were just giving you some tough love. Sometimes you need a bit of thick skin around here, but realize that even a post like Tyler's has the intent of constructive feedback even if it's buried under the brash sarcasm.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The river decision is the easiest in the hand. BB lead flop which can be a draw or a made hand. BB leads river after you checked behind the turn. THIS is almost ALWAYS a made hand. Even if he was betting a draw on the flop, all draws got there and have you beat. Clubs made it, 45 now has trips. Medium pocket pairs have you beat... everything here has you beat. Even if you win this pot one in 50 times (and that's being extremely generous), you still need to fold. Your flop raise represented that you could be something like A9, but BB still leads river when the scariest possible card hit. Fold river.

BTW, I just call flop donk, and fold turn UI.
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