Ethics of datamining on stars?

[5thStreetHog]

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This post is in response to certain members of the 2+2 community who are openly datamining PokerStars, despite this being in flagrant breach of their T&C's.

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No it isn't, and to do so is against our terms of service. Datamining of
observed hands is strictly prohibited. Of course, you are permitted to
record hands in which you have actually played.

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I agree with most other people that this rule is slightly pointless, hard to enforce, and they should be concentrating on more important matters.

However, All that we have that seperates us from the scum like RayBornet is the T&C's. If we condone breaking one Term, then it becomes a moral free-for-all.

All I am suggesting is that, as a community, we cannot openly condone breaking any T&C's, and should all make an effort to "toe-the-line" and stick to the T&C's. If we think the rule is wrong, then we should take that matter up with PokerStars rather than breaking it.

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I agree with you Stigmata.

[KLJ]

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What does stars do if they catch you datamining? (i.e. datamining from the same IP that you play on, not necessarily the same account)

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It is easy to detect, a single screenshot of your HUD run towards a hand database is all it takes, but since we have never heard of any such stories, I guess they turn a blind eye?

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if i'm not mistaken, for all intents and purposes, pokerstars doesn't read your hud.

i'm under the impression that it's an aftermarket (if you will) kind of thing that gets put on for your own use.

[StellarWind]

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I'm actually not terribly convinced that datamining has a very big affect on winrate. If you play 50k hands a month you have a very good coverage anyhow. The extra mined hands probably have an an increasingly thin affect on winrate. Especially at higher stakes where issues such as metagame, history and table dynamics are key.

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Not everyone plays 50k hands per month. Some good players play much less for a variety of reasons. Or they play a lot but only occasionally at a particular site.

One effect of datamining is it puts part-time players on a more equal footing with high-volume pros. Table selection is crucial and where datamining helps the most. Without it the high-volume pro might still know almost everyone in the game but the occasional player wouldn't.

Just something to think about when you form your opinion.

[Ryendal]

The Stars policy is not good here.

If you don't datamine, I suggere you to not play at stars.
Since I don't want to take any risk, that is what I do ( for cash games )

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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if i'm not mistaken, for all intents and purposes, pokerstars doesn't read your hud.

i'm under the impression that it's an aftermarket (if you will) kind of thing that gets put on for your own use.

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They can read it if they want, you download a thick client to your computer so getting a screenshot is easy.

[O Doyle Rules]

Hey stigmata,

You are right on.

The only problem is even if this 2 + 2 forum comes out against datamining it is not going to stop the hypocritical players here at 2 + 2 who have no problem with it, but cry foul on bots.

It is my understanding that the poker sites are powerless to stop programs like Poker-Edge, (a subscription fee program) that basically is a mass dataming program.

The only real solution here is for the pokersites to embrace programs like Poker-Edge truly making this datamining issue go away and put players on a level playing field. The sites could even offer the same information directly to players for a fee if they wanted to. Then if a player did not decide to pay the fee at the site for the information, at least he would be aware of it's existence and be making a conscious choice about the use of it.

The only other option is to go the way of other sites like WPEX and do not provide hand histories with names.

Here are two very relevant threads at 2 + 2 about all this:
Poker Edge discussion

Player Tracking discussion

[punter11235]

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The only other option is to go the way of other sites like WPEX and do not provide hand histories with names.


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If its possible to observe hands its possible to datamine.
It doesnt matter if HH's even exist.
Its possible to write a hand grabber which read action from the screen and then make his own HH format.
Sure its much trouble but it may be worth doing for some people.

[schwza]

it is definitely against the rules and unethical. i don't see how there can be any disagreement over that. but i also have no problem saying it's much less unethical than making a bot, multiple accounts at the same table, etc.

as for this arguement that it somehow levels the playing field between high-volume pros and the others, i have two responses:

- yeah, and playing more also gives me a better sense of when it's a good idea to bluff the river or fold the turn. suck it up.

- if i know everybody, then they all know me, so i'm gaining any great advantage (obv those without poker tracker are at some disadvantage, but the guys considering datamining obviously have pt). only it's even worse because of the $%^%&@ who are datamining so they know my exact stats before we've ever played a hand together.

[Wongboy]

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Can't they allow a different, easily changed SN to be displayed on the tables (not the same SN that you login)? Or would it open another different can of worms?

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I agree with this fully. If Stars is unable to stop data mining, then they should allow users to change screen names as often as they like. I would also support an option to let users display a randomly generated screen name which changes every time they change tables.

Forcing players to keep the same screen name for eternity is akin to forcing me to walk through Sadr City unarmed. At least give me a gun.

[51cards]

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The Stars policy is not good here.

If you don't datamine, I suggere you to not play at stars.
Since I don't want to take any risk, that is what I do ( for cash games )

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I play at stars and never datamine. I win. Why should I not play there exactly?