1/2 live bet size question

[AlienBoy]

50/100 buy in 1/2 live at Hustler LA

My image is tight agg. Table is the usual loose passives.

Stacks 100- I am deepest at 240

I have K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in mp3

Two loose passives limp, I raise to 8. Folds to BTN who thinks then calls, fold to mp1 who calls - three to the flop

Pot: about $24

FLOP: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Mp1 checks, HERO ?????


AB

[AllTheCheese]

Bet $18-$20. Call a shove. Raise to $11 preflop.

[AlexB182]

bet size Allthecheese.

I'd make it 18 - 20. You could easily be in front right now and have the straight draw along with it, important now to not give a flush draw sufficent odds to call correctly.

[AlienBoy]

thanks for the comments...

I bet 20, all folded.


I ask because i find myself in this situation alot, and wantednto check my line here to be sure I'm not missing value.


AB

[AllTheCheese]

[ QUOTE ]
bet size Allthecheese.


[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta give me time. I'm a manic editor.

[AlexB182]

lol, allright!

I'll wait 2 mins longer next time, is that ok for you?

[Albert Moulton]

In a 9-handed live game, I think I'd usually limp here preflop instead of raise, fold to a raise behind me, and play fit or fold on the flop. I'd be hoping to see a $2 multi-way limped pot in mid-position where I can occasionally get all-in on the flop or turn with a straight or flush vs somebody with a set, lower flush, 2-pair, or somebody overplaying a draw or top-pair hand post flop. Essentially, I'd usually be looking to play for implied odds rather than raising to cut down implied odds and narrowing the field with a pfr in the hopes of stealing the pot with a cb.

Occasionally, I'd raise to isolate the limpers, but only if (1) I can raise enough to actually buy the button, and (2) the limpers pretty much always play fit or fold (meaning that they will usually fold to a cb on the flop). As it worked out, you ended up getting button to call behind you, and that is very bad for a hand like KJs in a multi-way pot in which you miss the flop 2/3s of the time. Additionally, even when you hit your hand on the flop, it's very easy to flop your TPGK and end up stacking off OOP with a dominated hand vs AK, KQ, and AJ since the stacks are only 50bb deep.

In earlier position, or if the hand was folded to me in MP, then I'd just fold preflop instead of open limp or open raise.

As played, you hit the flop pretty hard, but you are far from being a lock to win. I think you should bet $24 (pot) and call a push. But if you end up calling a push, you are probably up against a pretty wide range like {JJ-TT,AKs,AJs,AhTh,Ah9h,Ah7h,Ah6h,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah3h,Ah2h ,KQs,QTs,J9s+,9h8h,AKo,AJo,KQo} vs which you have only about 33% equity. But with a pot of $24, a bet of $24, and a push to $92, you would have to call $68 for a chance to win $140 (2:1 pot odds) - making the call just about neutral EV. And if it's neutral, I'd take the gamble.

[jjshabado]

I think this is an easy raise preflop, and preferably a bit more then you did. I like somewhere around 10-12. You're definitely ahead of the limpers range, and almost certainly ahead of their calling range so make them pay.

On the flop I think its an easy 20ish bet and as others have said call any push. If you get a caller I'd push any non-heart turn. I'd probably check a heart turn and decide what to do on the river.

[AlienBoy]

Okay, let's discuss preflop- raise sizes here:


1) I know that 8 is a little less than the 4x +1BB for each limper that is typically presented as standard. I do tend to use that as the baseline for the raise size.

2) This games, the 50/100 buy in 1/2 blinds NL at Hustler ( the 80NL 1/3 at The Bike) are both played with DOLLAR ships, not $5 yellow chips. This has a very significant impact on the texture of the game. A "standard" raise or bet looks very intimidating to the lose passive that play this game.

3) As such, $8 PF in EP usually gets no action. $8 in MP usually gets one or two to the flop, as a note of comparison.

4) I consider KJs a medium strength hand - I usually don't want to commit a great deal to is as it's a "flop or drop" hand - useful for bluffs some times, hitting some times, but also putting one in a pickle other times.

5) I *do* consider hand strength when sizing a raise, and I do not subscribe to the "one size fits all" raise sizing concept (NLHET&P discusses this). I vary raise sizes both for variety and for relative hand strength and position, and mix this play up for unpredictability.

6) As far as limping with this hand - that's usually not a consideration in this game. The rake is $5 total ($4 for drop, $1 for JP) and it's "flop and drop" regardless of pot size. 3 limpers and the BB make a 8 dollar PF pot ($1 is always dropped PF), and after the flop it's $3 left in the pot.

$3. Wozers. If you hit the flop hard with KJs, it's going to be very difficult to get any value out of it, so limping in this game has implications that encourage more PF raising that you might do online or in LV.


AB

[MM_red33]

In my 2/2 Live game 8 PF bets get called by anything all day, 10-15 are the norms but the dollars chips do seem to be a legit reason.

ANother thing why I would raise with your hand is that LoosePass players, so easy to beat post flop.

I would bet 20 on flop, from my own experiences playing live if someone C/C then 90% of time its a draw, if someone raises then they have a K or a str8.