Deciding between NLHTAP and PNLv1.

nihil2501 · #1 10-10-2007, 11:46 AM

I have a gift certificate to B&N and I am looking to buy one of these two books (NLHTAP and PNLv1), as they seem to be the best for cash game strategy. From what I can tell, NLHTAP covers a wide range of specific situations (e.g. a chapter on blocking bets) while PNL is slightly more general and theoretical (e.g. the commitment threshold).
My aim is to able to put my hand range against another hand range and then take the most +EV "line" under the given circumstances (e.g. against LAG, multiway, blah blah blah). That said, I am not experienced enough yet and often can't understand why people reply with "standard" in the HSNL forum. Apparently PNL deals with this general formula precisely by way of the "REM process". However, I am afraid that the book has a deficiency in the variety of situations it treats, unlike NLHTAP which covers many situations.
So while PNL covers that which interests me, the REM process, NLHTAP will familiarize me with the "standard" in many situations.
Also, I love discussions like the one in this post: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5348855
Are there any books with similar material or a similar level of rigor to this?
I am fairly unsure about the accuracy of my statements regarding these books since I haven't read them, so any and all comments are welcome.
I hope my first post on 2p2 gets a lot of replies.

phydaux · #2 10-10-2007, 12:37 PM

I'm a NL cash game specialist and I've read both. I think PNL is the best book on NL hold'em I've ever read.

And I've read most of them.

And I would say your assessment is 180 out. NTL:T&P is more general and theoretical, while PNL is 100% practical.

BTW, for similar books there just aren't any. Harrington on Cash is due in January and PNL II soon after that.

nihil2501 · #3 10-10-2007, 01:35 PM

Thanks for your reply.

Would it be fair to say, though, that TAP, moreso than PNL, gives for each type of situation the best 'line' to use to maximize EV? I suspect this on the grounds that NLHTAP has a chapter specifically on check-raising, etc.

I could easily see how I might have extrapolated too far with this reasoning.

shyturtle27 · #4 10-10-2007, 01:36 PM

Bought them both. PNL far more practical. Buy it and read it three times. Play a lot. Then get NLTP and read it a little at a time pondering it. I think Matt Flynn said NLTP was more of a "food for thought" kind of book which I agree with. PNL is the best foundation for NL cash games.

phydaux · #5 10-10-2007, 04:09 PM

Theory of poker is just that - Theory. The value of position, the value of a free card, optimum bluffing frequency based on game theory. That sort of thing.

Lots of examples, but all the examples are from forms of limit hold'em because NL really wasn't spread as a cash game back when the book was first written. This doesn't make the book outdated or its concepts inapplicable, though. It just means that, as an NL cash game player, you'll need to think more than a limit hold'em, Razz, Stud, Stud/8 or Omaha/8 player would.

And getting you to think about poker at a high level is what this and other "advanced" poker books are all about, NOT giving you "cookie cutter" lines to play over and over in similar situations.

sixfour · #6 10-10-2007, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a NL cash game specialist and I've read both. I think PNL is the best book on NL hold'em I've ever read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm waiting for PNL at the moment, is this just a cash book?

jtr · #7 10-10-2007, 04:32 PM

Phydaux, I think there's been some confusion here. You seem to be referring to "Theory of Poker" when the OP was asking about "NL Hold'em Theory and Practice", the recent book by Sklansky and Miller.

And OP, if you can only buy one of the two books you mention, buy the Flynn, Mehta and Miller one. Then win some money and buy the other book with your profits, and you'll see why people are recommending PNL.

jeffnc · #8 10-10-2007, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And I would say your assessment is 180 out. NTL:T&P is more general and theoretical, while PNL is 100% practical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. NLHTAP might be just what he's looking for, but I found it intuitively obvious, without any real practical advice for playing actual hands against actual opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, for similar books there just aren't any. Harrington on Cash is due in January and PNL II soon after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington on Cash could be the most practical of all, if it follows his tournament books style, and PNL II will also hopefully fill in a lot of the game that wasn't covered in PNL I.

jeffnc · #9 10-10-2007, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be fair to say, though, that TAP, moreso than PNL, gives for each type of situation the best 'line' to use to maximize EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it tells you that you SHOULD maximize your EV, but it doesn't recommend actual lines that will do it. It says things like "if your opponent will call an all-in here enough times to make it more profitable in the long run than making a smaller bet, then go all-in." I find that sort of advice pretty much useless. It is helpful in explaining what sorts of things you should be thinking about, but leaves it to you to figure out what to do.

jeffnc · #10 10-10-2007, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm waiting for PNL at the moment, is this just a cash book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, although obviously there is overlap to a certain extent between cash and tournament books. I think understanding SPR is a good basis for understanding Harrington Vol II. PNL links preflop and postflop play together though, which is more important when stacks are deeper than the low M situations in HOH Vol II.