Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)

[wazz]

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i know its great to know the flop before you 3 bet, but considering you style and the stacks being this deep i would have thought you might 3 bet pre here? if it was an 8 instead of a 7 i think even i would 3 bet this deep :P

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This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

[TheRempel]

So what was the major deciding factor in not 3bombing this preflop when you did so with a fairly similar hand in the other thread?

[wazz]

Still trying to find the right pic on google to accompany my 'R U Serious?'

[Elrazor]

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i know its great to know the flop before you 3 bet, but considering you style and the stacks being this deep i would have thought you might 3 bet pre here? if it was an 8 instead of a 7 i think even i would 3 bet this deep :P

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This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

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i figured this might be your reasoning, but seeing as this is a tough opponent would 3 betting not simplify your decisions post flop to some degree?? if there is one thing i hate is being in a raised pot where your stacks are huge compared to a pot thats still worth winning

[TheRempel]

Completely. Your play is totally the opposite of the other thread in which you reraised queens for 40% of your stack in what was likely going to be a 3-way pot when you had position. Here nothing is really all that different except you seem to feel your opponent is a better player than you.

In the other hand you reraise with a hand that isn't a favorite over much preflop, especially three ways. In this hand you chose to flat call when raising can help negate his edge against you postflop. Neither play makes sense in the context you gave.

[TheRempel]

Oh and...

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This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

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.. is a pretty bad line of thinking. Most of the weak players will come in regardless so you're basically giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.

[wazz]

Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.

I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.

And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

[FireStorm]

Raising this flop is fine.

[TheRempel]

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Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.


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You chose to turn a hand you can play very profitably for one raise into a hand that you are going to press a very small edge at best with. By your logic if the flop had come differently and one of your opponents had you drawing dead they would have outplayed you. I'm all for pushing small edges when there are good reasons to. You haven't given any except that your queens are probably best preflop. Last time I checked 'best hand' does not equal favorite in this game.

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I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.


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This is totally counter-intuitive. Against weak players you should be willing to play relatively cheap pots preflop so you can realise your greater postflop edge later in the hand. Against strong players you want to get as much out of your positional advantage as possible by reraising preflop, If the weak players have hands they want to play in the blinds, awesome. If not you're not losing anything, especially since you are in bad position against the two blinds relative to the initial raiser. Unless you flop pretty well if either of the blinds call you're going to have a tough decision on a lot of flops when UTG leads out and you've got little fold equity with the two blinds acting after you, since the default donk move is to checkraise all hands they intend to play for stacks. Having the initiative is worth a huge amount in this game.

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And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

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On this particular flop, sure. It's easy to raise with air when your opponent has to have a hand to play back at you with. What are you doing when the flop comes something thats actually scary for you, like it will most of the time?

My point is that there is a huge fundamental difference in your play of these two hands that can't be rationalised as 'my queens were probably best' or 'we had deep stacks and he's a solid player'. Obviously playing the same way in any two similar situations is not ideal, but when you make those plays for the wrong reasons it becomes a leak.

[sqwisssssss]

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Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.


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You chose to turn a hand you can play very profitably for one raise into a hand that you are going to press a very small edge at best with. By your logic if the flop had come differently and one of your opponents had you drawing dead they would have outplayed you. I'm all for pushing small edges when there are good reasons to. You haven't given any except that your queens are probably best preflop. Last time I checked 'best hand' does not equal favorite in this game.

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I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.


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This is totally counter-intuitive. Against weak players you should be willing to play relatively cheap pots preflop so you can realise your greater postflop edge later in the hand. Against strong players you want to get as much out of your positional advantage as possible by reraising preflop, If the weak players have hands they want to play in the blinds, awesome. If not you're not losing anything, especially since you are in bad position against the two blinds relative to the initial raiser. Unless you flop pretty well if either of the blinds call you're going to have a tough decision on a lot of flops when UTG leads out and you've got little fold equity with the two blinds acting after you, since the default donk move is to checkraise all hands they intend to play for stacks. Having the initiative is worth a huge amount in this game.

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And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

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On this particular flop, sure. It's easy to raise with air when your opponent has to have a hand to play back at you with. What are you doing when the flop comes something thats actually scary for you, like it will most of the time?

My point is that there is a huge fundamental difference in your play of these two hands that can't be rationalised as 'my queens were probably best' or 'we had deep stacks and he's a solid player'. Obviously playing the same way in any two similar situations is not ideal, but when you make those plays for the wrong reasons it becomes a leak.

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i think rempel is gOOt.........almost better than me