Are ANY two cards mathematically playable with huge pot odds?

[Poker Clif]

I recently had a situation where I called a raise with A6s preflop, early in a micro NLHE MTT. Sounds pretty bad, except that I only had to call $20 into a $480 pot.

It turned out rather well, as the flop was A66. But it got me thinking--with those odds, are there ANY two cards that aren't playable?

If no, does the following logic apply?

1. You should stay in a big pot with weaker odds than those that would keep you in a small pot.

2. With pot odds that are big enough, it is mathematically correct to call whether the pot is small or large.

3. Therefore, if you are last to act and everyone else at your table shoves on the first hand of an MTT, you should shove also. You have good pot odds and the pot is large.

[TrvChBoy]

If the pot odds were good enough, I would call with NO cards, and just hold my big hands in front of me on the felt and hope the dealer didn't notice.

1 Yes
2 Yes
3 I'm not sure, but this is a very interesting question.

[jay_shark]

[ QUOTE ]
I recently had a situation where I called a raise with A6s preflop, early in a micro NLHE MTT. Sounds pretty bad, except that I only had to call $20 into a $480 pot.

It turned out rather well, as the flop was A66. But it got me thinking--with those odds, are there ANY two cards that aren't playable?

If no, does the following logic apply?

1. You should stay in a big pot with weaker odds than those that would keep you in a small pot.

2. With pot odds that are big enough, it is mathematically correct to call whether the pot is small or large.

3. Therefore, if you are last to act and everyone else at your table shoves on the first hand of an MTT, you should shove also. You have good pot odds and the pot is large.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)First , it's important that you specify the number of opponents you're up against . Second , you should have an idea of how much they may possibly lose if you were to win ;in other words , the number of chips you could potentially win is very important .

For instance , I don't think you should play 7-2 offsuit from the sb with 9 limpers . Even though you're getting wonderful odds , this is a bad bet for you . You can only be content with two pair and even those flops are vulnerable to getting outdrawn .

2) The more opponents you have in the pot , the better your pot odds need to be to call with a weak hand . If you're only up against one other opponent , then you don't need 18:1 pot odds . Something like 3:1 may suffice for a large subset of unpaired hole cards .

3) If n opponents at your table shove on the first hand , then you must figure that they are shoving with random hands . You should call if your hand will win more than 1/n . At a 10 handed table , this includes hands like q-9, j-9 ,k-9,a-8, 22+

[AaronBrown]

I think you are mixing up two different ideas.

(1) Generally speaking, you like to be in hands where your chance of winning is better than your pot odds. In this case, it's not the absolute size of the pot that matters, but the size relative to both your bet and your chance of winning.

(2) When there are a lot of players in the pot, small cards can be better than big ones. People who raise and call are more likely to have big cards, so (a) big cards are less likely on the board than small ones and (b) you're likely to be helped by boards that don't help others, so you can win more pots.

If you only have to pay $20 to get into a $480 pot, you're willing to call with a hand that is a longshot to win. So you would play a weaker hand than if you needed to pay $230 to call this bet. That's (1). You still have to consider the rest of the hand, however.

In a pot with 11 other players, A6s is nice for the flush draw, but a tough hand to play otherwise. That's (2). Unless a 6 shows up on the flop, it's hard to call a big bet in no-limit. Someone very likely has A with a better kicker, so an A doesn't make you confident. If no A shows up, someone might well have a high pair, or have paired. Also, any flush and straight possibilities on the board have to be taken seriously. You might well have the best hand by the river, but in no-limit you're not likely to see the river. In limit, it's a better proposition, but you'll still lose a lot to A with a better kicker.

[Vetgirig]

1 yes 2 yes 3 NO

In these situations one dont call to hit one pair - one call to hit at least two pair or better hands that that. Because with so many players in a pot - one need a much better hand to play along after the flop. A single pair is a check-fold when many players are in the hand.

But on the other hand with good odds one must call with any 2 cards - because any 2 cards has a certain chance of hitting 2 pair or better on a flop.

As for 3 - yes you could call in certain circumstances - if one is shortstacked and need to triple upp or more just to be able to play on its good to call with any 2 - otherwise the best is a fold. There are some players who would even fold AA in that spot.

[RobNottsUk]

The emphasis on 'Pot Odds' is theoretically wrong, unless you're nearly All In, ie. are short-stacked.

Implied odds and reverse implied odds should be used, and unfortunately poor hands like 82o, tend not to get paid by good players as they don't have very much and smell a rat.

So consider your opponents, their skill, how aggressive and what have you done to increase your implied odds against them.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

#3 is not really a pot odds question. I think a terrible player with good cards should shove, as he is unlikely to outplay the field. And to multiple his stack 9x all in may be his only real chance to begin a run to the money.

I think a world class player without tremendous cards should fold without a second thought. He will have opportunities to outplay others , rather than letting one hand decide his fate.

[mykey1961]

how do you find yourself in a situation where you only have to call $20 into a $480 pot?

1) you have 24 opponents?
2) you only have $20, which means your $20 doesn't get you a shot at the whole $480.
3) you've previously invested other money into the pot, and only need to put $20 more in.

Which of these apply?

[mykey1961]

[ QUOTE ]
If the pot odds were good enough, I would call with NO cards, and just hold my big hands in front of me on the felt and hope the dealer didn't notice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you are only going to win if you get everyone else to fold. If the pot is already large, you're gonna have to put in enough (now or later) to give others bad enough pot odds to fold. Good luck with that.

[TrvChBoy]

Well it was primarily a goof to illustrate a point: When you are getting great pot odds you should play.

However, I did read somewhere that TJ Cloutier (notice his large hands) pulled this off once with no cards.