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#22
01-22-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
I have no idea why you shouldnt bet this flop. can u tell me?
C-betting that flop is really standard imo. Hero showed strength preflop, why slow down? betting is the only way we get information on villains hand. if he repops its a fold, he folds 22-99, AK, AJ and any suited connector he cud be in there with other than JT. Id like to bet a little more, 18-20 sounds about right. Fold on the river is standard, looks like AQ to me. 
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#23
01-22-2007, 09:37 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
well, what better hands does the villain fold to a flop bet? JJ? what worse hands can hero get more than one barrel of value from? [/ QUOTE ] I get called all the time by random pairs on the flop that check it down, yeah people spew against you if you 3-bet+c-bet light... Also you'll never get more than one street of value out of this hand once the flop hits with the overcard (unless you hit a set), if I KNOW that villain is overly agressive I might call him down and check the flop but this is very rare and certainly not standard.
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#24
01-22-2007, 09:40 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
here are the reasons to make a bet:
1. to get a call from a worse hand 2. to make a better hand fold it makes sense to bet for the first reason, for the second reason, and for some combination of the two reasons, but not "for information" (especially in a hand like this, where the villain can easily call with a hand that has us beat) or "because hero raised preflop." these just aren't legitimate, reasons to make a bet if you are looking at things in terms of expected value.
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#25
01-22-2007, 09:42 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] well, what better hands does the villain fold to a flop bet? JJ? what worse hands can hero get more than one barrel of value from? [/ QUOTE ] I get called all the time by random pairs on the flop that check it down, yeah people spew against you if you 3-bet+c-bet light... Also you'll never get more than one street of value out of this hand once the flop hits with the overcard (unless you hit a set), if I KNOW that villain is overly agressive I might call him down and check the flop but this is very rare and certainly not standard. [/ QUOTE ] exactly, hero's hand is not good enough to get two barrels of value. so why do most people bet the flop with this hand? is it because that's the street that villains are most likely to call with a worse hand on? maybe, that's the only reason i can think of that makes sense.
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#26
01-22-2007, 09:48 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] well, what better hands does the villain fold to a flop bet? JJ? what worse hands can hero get more than one barrel of value from? [/ QUOTE ] I get called all the time by random pairs on the flop that check it down, yeah people spew against you if you 3-bet+c-bet light... Also you'll never get more than one street of value out of this hand once the flop hits with the overcard (unless you hit a set), if I KNOW that villain is overly agressive I might call him down and check the flop but this is very rare and certainly not standard. [/ QUOTE ] exactly, hero's hand is not good enough to get two barrels of value. so why do most people bet the flop with this hand? is it because that's the street that villains are most likely to call with a worse hand on? maybe, that's the only reason i can think of that makes sense. [/ QUOTE ] It is for me because I bet most hands on the flop I raise preflop with, this might be different for you because you are more likely to check the flop with a lot of hands. As I said, its a difference in style and betting this flop or checking it are neither wrong or right IMO... In fact is pretty close together, I get more money from my monsters (TPTK/overpair/sets) while you probably win more with the weaker holdings.
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#27
01-22-2007, 09:51 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
here are the reasons to make a bet: 1. to get a call from a worse hand 2. to make a better hand fold it makes sense to bet for the first reason, for the second reason, and for some combination of the two reasons, but not "for information" (especially in a hand like this, where the villain can easily call with a hand that has us beat) or "because hero raised preflop." these just aren't legitimate, reasons to make a bet if you are looking at things in terms of expected value. [/ QUOTE ] imo, "a combination of the two reasons" gains information. if you are betting due to a combination of the two reasons you surely have no idea where ur hand lies...therefore betting gains information. I really cant believe you're saying that there is never a reason to bet in order to gain information. Pretty ridiculous and very ABC-esque. well done.
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#28
01-22-2007, 09:51 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
fair enough, but as i already posted, i have no problem getting all in on the turn/river after checking the flop with monsters like overpairs, sets, etc. that's the fundamental reason why i think checking the flop works fine.
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#29
01-22-2007, 09:54 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] well, what better hands does the villain fold to a flop bet? JJ? what worse hands can hero get more than one barrel of value from? [/ QUOTE ] I get called all the time by random pairs on the flop that check it down, yeah people spew against you if you 3-bet+c-bet light... Also you'll never get more than one street of value out of this hand once the flop hits with the overcard (unless you hit a set), if I KNOW that villain is overly agressive I might call him down and check the flop but this is very rare and certainly not standard. [/ QUOTE ] exactly, hero's hand is not good enough to get two barrels of value. so why do most people bet the flop with this hand? is it because that's the street that villains are most likely to call with a worse hand on? maybe, that's the only reason i can think of that makes sense. [/ QUOTE ] if you want a street of value might as well make it the flop before more overcards come along? yes, its the street most likely for villain to call if he has over(s). besides, if you check behind here and another over comes on the turn and he checks to you again, you've just missed out on your one street of value
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#30
01-22-2007, 09:54 AM
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Re: Oh So Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] here are the reasons to make a bet: 1. to get a call from a worse hand 2. to make a better hand fold it makes sense to bet for the first reason, for the second reason, and for some combination of the two reasons, but not "for information" (especially in a hand like this, where the villain can easily call with a hand that has us beat) or "because hero raised preflop." these just aren't legitimate, reasons to make a bet if you are looking at things in terms of expected value. [/ QUOTE ] imo, "a combination of the two reasons" gains information. if you are betting due to a combination of the two reasons you surely have no idea where ur hand lies...therefore betting gains information. I really cant believe you're saying that there is never a reason to bet in order to gain information. Pretty ridiculous and very ABC-esque. well done. [/ QUOTE ] I think you mean that there's value in a bet on the flop and that a side benefit is that you gain information right? If you mean that you bet for information, thats a serious flaw unless you KNOW that you'r forced to lose more in future streets if your behind than the money you spend on the information. Just like betting for image is a small consideration in each hand so is betting for information. Its a small part of the puzzle, but extremely rarely a big part...
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