Home game ruling - was this guy a douche?

[jeffnc]

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I only deal cash games. Look again at the OP. He didn't throw his hand away and he didn't say he was folding.

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It doesn't matter if he said he was folding or not, because folding is not a legal play at that point. He might as well have said "check" or "raise" - it would have made just as much sense (i.e. none). A raise would obviously not be binding because it can't be done, and likewise a fold isn't binding because it can't be done.

[jeffnc]

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But, with no other action by the player I would then rely on which way the cards landed, face up or down, to determine if it was a call or fold. Face up a call. Face down a fold.

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This is a moot point. You have to get that through your head. One player went all-in and another player called. There is no more calling or folding that is even possible. There is only mucking or showing, period.

[Lottery Larry]

Agreed.

The main point here, Small Fry, is that a bet was made by the "mucker" and called, so betting is closed on the river. Therefore, the face-up cards are live regardless of where they land imo. The player has to work really, REALLY hard to fold them, cash game or tourney.

Now, if Adolf turns over the cards face-down and says "I fold", then you might have a kettle of worms to argue about, Small Fry. Face up, I could argue the verbal action supercedes, but I'd be look for a reason NOT to (I wouldn't look hard, but I'd probably confirm the fold and then muck the cards).

However, saying anything else, such as "I lose" or "You got it" or "blahlabhahaoha" doesn't kill Adolf's hand.

[Zetack]

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I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

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"Adolf instantly throws his J8 face up in the middle of the table, gestures to the pot and says 'take it'."

You mean, tabling it like this?

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Can you please show me a rule or rules that state a players cards if turned face up, in a cash game, on the river, are live? I can't find it. I can find this under Dead Hands, You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). It doesn't say your cards have to land face down. It doesn't say they need to land in, on or near the muck pile.

In the Showdown section we have this... A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot. But as we've discussed previously in this forum if the original bettor decides to just fold (and you can bet the river, get called and just fold, instead of showing your hand) then there is no "showdown" and most in this forum agreed there would no requirement on the only player left with cards to show.

I cannot find any rule that states in a cash game an all in hand must be shown either.

So we have a situation where a player throws away his cards and makes a statement conceeding the pot. This action causes his opponent to believe he has won and he turns his hand face up. I believe that, in a cash game, Adolfs actions should be construed as a fold.

But some are saying because his cards are face up, no matter what he intended, his hand is live.

My interpretation of the the cards speak rule is to the extent of what the hand is, not to what action the player holding them is taking. That is cards don't fold, call or raise, players do. Cards only override a players verbal declaration about hand ranking.

I'm not trying to be an obstinate ass. I agree tournament rules state that an all in hand must be tabled and therefore Adolf cannot fold. No matter what he says. But I think it's different for a cash game.

I have a good deal of respect for you guys (well, some of you) as you tend to always get it right. So feel free to point out all the flaws in my reasoning.

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I like your question.

It is true that the rules don't properly define a tabled hand versus a mucked one. So the very short answer is that we have to refer to common practice here. There is some level of detail that is simply impractical to get into in the rules. So practice tells us that simply throwing our cards in a forward motion at showdown, is not a muck, they must also be face down. By common practice, many players who fully intend to showdown the hand, toss their cards face up towards the middle, often calling out their hand as well. In fact this throwing forward of the cards is the rule, rather than the exception in every live game I've ever played in, and every game I've seen on TV. Very few players I know hold onto their cards at showdown unless they don't intend to show and are planning on mucking. Thus the mere forward throw of the cards can't be a muck. (In fact, I think you agree, with this except for the words "Take it,". But "take it" or other words of concession, are also meaningless statements, as there is no such action in poker). Thus the issue here is really knowing the "cards speak" rule.

But I think we can get there, at least by implication, by without depending wholly upon common practice.

First, the definition of muck from Robert's Rules: MUCK: (1) The pile of discards gathered facedown in the center of the table by the dealer. (2) To discard a hand.

# 2 doesn't help much, since discarding a hand is exactly what we are trying to define, but #1, at least gives us some support that mucking involves face down cards.

At showdown: 4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

Which supports the idea that a hand is live until it hits the muck. (at least at showdown, where, remember there is no such actions as fold, so a verbal declaration of fold wouldn't apply)

Also: "To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not." Obvously that's not difinitive, because it could simply mean that if you don't show you can't win, not necessarily that showing means you haven't mucked, but again, its supportive of the idea that cards face up are in play for the pot. Particularly in connjuction with:

"Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. "


I think that's good enough although, as you say, there is no rule directly telling us that hands tossed face up have been "tabled."

So I'll turn your question around. When your hand has been turned face up at showdown, where in the rules does it say that the words I concede, or take it, or whatever, kills your hand? Particularly in the face of the "Cards Speak" rule?

[DavidSRT]

if Adolf would have thrown his cards face down no matter what he has the pot CANNOT go to him.... However no matter what he says, if it is face up and the winner. it will win. He could have a Royal and say "caught me bluffing, you win" but if it is face up then the pot will go to him.

[Small Fry]

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I know in a tourney that the rules state an all in hand must be tabled. Is this rule also in effect for cash games?

So I'm still thinking if this was cash Adolf's hand should be declared dead.

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"Adolf instantly throws his J8 face up in the middle of the table, gestures to the pot and says 'take it'."

You mean, tabling it like this?

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Can you please show me a rule or rules that state a players cards if turned face up, in a cash game, on the river, are live? I can't find it. I can find this under Dead Hands, You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). It doesn't say your cards have to land face down. It doesn't say they need to land in, on or near the muck pile.

In the Showdown section we have this... A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot. But as we've discussed previously in this forum if the original bettor decides to just fold (and you can bet the river, get called and just fold, instead of showing your hand) then there is no "showdown" and most in this forum agreed there would no requirement on the only player left with cards to show.

I cannot find any rule that states in a cash game an all in hand must be shown either.

So we have a situation where a player throws away his cards and makes a statement conceeding the pot. This action causes his opponent to believe he has won and he turns his hand face up. I believe that, in a cash game, Adolfs actions should be construed as a fold.

But some are saying because his cards are face up, no matter what he intended, his hand is live.

My interpretation of the the cards speak rule is to the extent of what the hand is, not to what action the player holding them is taking. That is cards don't fold, call or raise, players do. Cards only override a players verbal declaration about hand ranking.

I'm not trying to be an obstinate ass. I agree tournament rules state that an all in hand must be tabled and therefore Adolf cannot fold. No matter what he says. But I think it's different for a cash game.

I have a good deal of respect for you guys (well, some of you) as you tend to always get it right. So feel free to point out all the flaws in my reasoning.

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I like your question.

It is true that the rules don't properly define a tabled hand versus a mucked one. So the very short answer is that we have to refer to common practice here. There is some level of detail that is simply impractical to get into in the rules. So practice tells us that simply throwing our cards in a forward motion at showdown, is not a muck, they must also be face down. By common practice, many players who fully intend to showdown the hand, toss their cards face up towards the middle, often calling out their hand as well. In fact this throwing forward of the cards is the rule, rather than the exception in every live game I've ever played in, and every game I've seen on TV. Very few players I know hold onto their cards at showdown unless they don't intend to show and are planning on mucking. Thus the mere forward throw of the cards can't be a muck. (In fact, I think you agree, with this except for the words "Take it,". But "take it" or other words of concession, are also meaningless statements, as there is no such action in poker). Thus the issue here is really knowing the "cards speak" rule.

But I think we can get there, at least by implication, by without depending wholly upon common practice.

First, the definition of muck from Robert's Rules: MUCK : (1) The pile of discards gathered facedown in the center of the table by the dealer. (2) To discard a hand .

# 2 doesn't help much, since discarding a hand is exactly what we are trying to define, but #1, at least gives us some support that mucking involves face down cards.

At showdown: 4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

Which supports the idea that a hand is live until it hits the muck. (at least at showdown, where, remember there is no such actions as fold, so a verbal declaration of fold wouldn't apply)

Also: "To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not." Obvously that's not difinitive, because it could simply mean that if you don't show you can't win, not necessarily that showing means you haven't mucked, but again, its supportive of the idea that cards face up are in play for the pot. Particularly in connjuction with:

"Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. "


I think that's good enough although, as you say, there is no rule directly telling us that hands tossed face up have been "tabled."

So I'll turn your question around. When your hand has been turned face up at showdown, where in the rules does it say that the words I concede, or take it, or whatever, kills your hand? Particularly in the face of the "Cards Speak" rule?

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Thanks for the well thought out response. I bolded some parts I thought relevent. Notice in the definition of muck where it say to discard ones hand it doesn't say face down. And obviously you can't have a pile of cards on the table face up so I don't see any real relevence with definition #1.

Personally I have never tabled my hand by tossing it into the middle of the table. I might extend my arm to place my cards further out onto the table to make it easier for the dealer to read my hand, if I am on the end, but I will never toss it away, out of my easy reach. Generally I will also not remove my hand from my cards either until I know and understand who won.

At any other point in the game throwing ones cards away is considered mucking or folding. So why is this different?

As for "tabling" a hand. IT would appear that any hand turned face up on the river is a tabled hand. But this is not true. Or is it? Player A shows a hand and player B , who misread hid hand folds, face down, dealer inadvertantly turns up player B's cards and it discovered he acteually has the winning hand. Is his hand now live and the winner? Tabling a hand should only involve the simple turning up of of your hole cards, presented in a manner such that they are clearly identifyable and reamain in control of the player. But obviously this is not true either. So tabling appears to be whenever a player, by his own acts, causes his cards to be turned up, thereby eligible for a showdown.

As for Cards Speak. I addressed that above. Do the cards speak at any other time a player folds? If a player has action pending to him on the turn and he discards his hand and it lands face up we don't ask him if he is going to call? (Turning your cards face up doesn't kill your hand and is usually acceptable heads up in a cash game)Maybe you do? If not, why not?

Is the river, where there has been a bet and call, then a special circumstance where a player is afforded a certain amount of protection? Such that no matter what his intent, if by his own actions his hand is turned up it is live.

Lastly, players don't always say the magic words of call, raise and fold. They use a lot of words or phrases that mean the same things and further indicate their intent by their physical actions. If the argument is he didn't say the proper word then you nullify the fact his cards are face up. In other words if you agree if he said something to the effect of " I just fold" and tossed his cards into the middle, with his cards landing face up, but because he said the magic word - fold - his hand is now dead. You are contradicting yourself and any argument you make about the cards being face up is no longer valid. So, with that, any vebal declaration by him is invalidated by his cards landing face up.

Which I think leads to only one conclusion: IF, by his own actions, a players cards are turned face up on the river, oncehe has called a bet or had his bet called by another player, he has forced a showdown and the best hand wins.

God, this is long. Thanks for the good discussion.

[Small Fry]

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if Adolf would have thrown his cards face down no matter what he has the pot CANNOT go to him.... However no matter what he says, if it is face up and the winner. it will win. He could have a Royal and say "caught me bluffing, you win" but if it is face up then the pot will go to him.

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This is wrong. In a tournament an all in player cannot fold his hand. It must be turned up and the best hand wins. Adolf is all in so his hand must be tabled for a showdown.

[pfapfap]

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Which I think leads to only one conclusion: IF, by his own actions, a players cards are turned face up on the river, once he has called a bet or had his bet called by another player, he has forced a showdown and the best hand wins.

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Correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

(nit: it's showdown, not river)

[Zetack]

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Which I think leads to only one conclusion: IF, by his own actions, a players cards are turned face up on the river, oncehe has called a bet or had his bet called by another player, he has forced a showdown and the best hand wins.



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Well I was going to argue some of your points because it sounded like you were going in another direction. But you ended up whith the same conclusion that I have, so no more beating on this comatose horse from me.

--Zetack

[NotStudying]

You can only fold a hand when the play is still active. If both players checked down after the river, then the game was over. He couldn't have folded, even if he wanted to.