An objective analysis: Why doesn’t small ball work at micro stakes?

[Leviathan101]

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Opening up your game in a deliberate and intelligent fashion causes your opponents to open up theirs in a haphazard and impulsive fashion.


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IMHO, this is the key to playing a LAG style.

I play an 28/22 game. I classify my self as a LAG. I win 8.38 PTBB/100.

Stats don't mean [censored]. Play what makes you comfortable and keep an open mind to potential change.

To put it simply, I feel I have a good grasp of hand reading. I take people off weak and marginal hands. I reraise liberally preflop. I bet my draws, and fire the river when I miss. I play aggresively, but I always think carefully.

Honestly, I think being a LAG is all about momentum. Aggresion pays, it's so true. But being a maniac is lighting money on fire. Pick your spots carefully. Poker Tracker is my best friend. Use the stats. Take notes. Pay attention. You can find so many opportunities. You CAN small ball this limit to death, I do it, and also win stacks because of my image as well.

However... just because a LAG is loose doesn't mean he has to call everything preflop. I don't call raises with hands that are easily dominated preflop. I don't like to get involved in pots I don't open because I don't have control of the hand. This means I tend to fold KQ to a raise, because I don't control action, don't want to see an ace flop, don't want them to turn over AQ, etc. Rather I tend to play 97s, and play it smart postflop. I want to play hands where I put pressure on them, not the other way around. Being a LAG also doesn't mean shoving your stack in there at any opportunity. Play smart. Shove your combo draws, your two pairs and sets or whatever else you do. Don't shove because you feel like you have to, to be LAG. You DON'T have to bluff the flop/turn/river. Giving up isn't a crime, it's a critical skill to playing LAG. In many cases their hand range should be so defined that you should just give it up, or on the flip side, should fire at the pot. Spend some time learning the villian's lines, it's so critical.

I know I have a ton of leaks. I tend to call 3 bets too light. That's a huge leak, and one I really need to work out of my system. But being a LAG at 50nl... isn't wrong. It's just different. A TAG game is the standard, but that doesn't mean being a LAG doesn't work. I fully believe that if you are not good enough to beat 50nl, it doesn't matter which you play. LAG may be harder to play, it may not be optimal here, but I can win here, and I'm pretty sure I can win at 100nl. Might be able to go beyond that without any change in my skill at the moment. Don't know, that might be saying too much.

I don't know what else to say. I'm kinda tired.

I play LAG, I win, and I have fun.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt... I know I'm not the best player, far far from it, but I feel that I can crush the micros with my game. Listen to everything with an open mind, and sort everything you learn into worthwhile and bad information. This is the real key to improving.

GL all. See you across the felt.

jonyy6788, I disagree that you have to loosen your game at 100nl. I have only tried it a few times, but I don`t understand why it should be so different. I do think that at much higher stakes it`s probably necessary. I play pretty nitty now cause I moved up to 50NL recently, but I`m sure I will be playing my usual stats in a couple of weeks wich are 20/13/3. I would believe that aggression is very important the more you move up, but more looseness I don`t think so.

Btw there are a couple of very solid middle and high stakes pros who play tag or even nit.

[matrix]

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I don't think what OP is describing is small ball. It isn't about LAGging it up and trying to outplay everyone, it's exactly the opposite. It's sitting back and picking your spots. Instead of playing power poker you play a little more passively and play smaller pots

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Small Ball is defined in HOH2 as:

smallball is a style based on making small moves at pots, blending probe and continuation bets, or calls followed by small raises, or bets based on position to pull down pots cheaply without much of a hand. The key word here is "cheap." Since not all of these moves will work, don't invest a lot of money in any particular move. Just keep bobbing and weaving ... stealing small pots while you wait for the big hand that doubles you up"

Which imo pretty much describes LAG play.

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I agree.. I've played with him a few times.. he's very quick to 3 bet and try to bludgeon people with his stack... that is not at all small ball.

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prodonkey:

thats the 2nd time in this thread you've called out OP for playing LAG [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

from the OP:

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I wish I had understood this a few months ago, it would have saved me a lot of undue stress and frustration.

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I read that as "I used to play LAG lots and now I play TAG and I find I have much more success with it"

So what's your point prodonkey?

all:

Please keep posts in uNL civil. This thread is starting to turn into a flame fest. Unnecessary flaming isn't good for anyone.

Some players can play LAG style well and make a good return - most players can't. When you are starting out it makes much more sense to play simple ABC TAG until you have more experience. If you can play LAG well then good for you. There is after all more than one way to fillet a fish. Thats no reason tho to bash OP.

Play nice people.

[munkey]

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jonyy6788, I disagree that you have to loosen your game at 100nl. I have only tried it a few times, but I don`t understand why it should be so different. I do think that at much higher stakes it`s probably necessary. I play pretty nitty now cause I moved up to 50NL recently, but I`m sure I will be playing my usual stats in a couple of weeks wich are 20/13/3. I would believe that aggression is very important the more you move up, but more looseness I don`t think so.

Btw there are a couple of very solid middle and high stakes pros who play tag or even nit.

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I play nitty tight like 18/12 or thereabouts. I fold alot Kxs and broadway *junk* in late position. There's a post by edge in SSNL about playing tight preflop that says this better than what I can. However I do believe raising more preflop @ NL100 is the way to go based on recent experiences where the blinds fold much more often, then again I dont want to get 3bet so often with marginal hands so still not sure on this one.


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Small Ball is defined in HOH2 as:

smallball is a style based on making small moves at pots, blending probe and continuation bets, or calls followed by small raises, or bets based on position to pull down pots cheaply without much of a hand. The key word here is "cheap." Since not all of these moves will work, don't invest a lot of money in any particular move. Just keep bobbing and weaving ... stealing small pots while you wait for the big hand that doubles you up"


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From a book written by tight image Harrington, this is what us tighties can use our advanatge to. When I steal small pots, semi-bluff/3bet light villans have to give me credit just looking at my stats and since many of these hands don't go to showdown villans rarely know I'm doing it.

In HOH1 Harrington mentions this about plays opposite to your image work best for you - somewhere where he describes the various preflop styles.


I think I need to get HOH2 ( got HOH1 and think that's pretty g00t but am somewhat put off by the tourneyness) , gotta use those spare FTPs for something *cough* ship electronics to Europe.

Just my 2 pence [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[prodonkey]

I don't have a point.. post count +1

[fccz]

I'm a beginer, can someone explain to me what 20/13/3 means ???

[prodonkey]

20 is % of time you voluntarily put money in the pot.. 13 is the % of time you preflop raise.. 3 is total agression factor according to poker tracker.. which means he raises 3 times as often as calls.

Isn't this stuff in the faq?

[Marshall28]

When i wrote the original post, I didn't really consider exactly what I was talking about I suppose. LAG isn't exactly what I want to say 'doesn't work' because I've definitely had some success w/ it in the past. Small ball, however, after I think about it more, is still a lot of what I'm doing even though my play is tighter. I guess the essential point to the post was that we do know it to be true that playing LAG will get us more action from our opponents when we have a big hand, but it's actually quite unnecessary as micro stakes opponents have the tendency to pay us off regardless of our image (because for the most part they don't consider it). Plus the fact that playing LAG gets us in a lot of marginal spots post flop where its quite difficult to make the correct decision.

BUT ANYWAYS, I was trying to point out that those pots where you are splashing around a lot, the 10-20bb sized pots... you don't need to win those, or even be involved in them, you really only need to win a few big hands a day to be a very successful player.

[sputum]

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When i wrote the original post, I didn't really consider exactly what I was talking about I suppose. LAG isn't exactly what I want to say 'doesn't work' because I've definitely had some success w/ it in the past. Small ball, however, after I think about it more, is still a lot of what I'm doing even though my play is tighter. I guess the essential point to the post was that we do know it to be true that playing LAG will get us more action from our opponents when we have a big hand, but it's actually quite unnecessary as micro stakes opponents have the tendency to pay us off regardless of our image (because for the most part they don't consider it). Plus the fact that playing LAG gets us in a lot of marginal spots post flop where its quite difficult to make the correct decision.

BUT ANYWAYS, I was trying to point out that those pots where you are splashing around a lot, the 10-20bb sized pots... you don't need to win those, or even be involved in them, you really only need to win a few big hands a day to be a very successful player.

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Oooo but you'll get called a nit [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Hope you can fade that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Heh I have a theory that if one just kinda sat there at an NL25 table and took what they were given they'd beat it for a decent rate (not sure how much, not enough data [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]) As long as one can do that, the rest is jam. LAG, TAG whatever.