KJs in SB vs PFR

simonmfromgu · #1 08-07-2007, 09:14 PM

Hi,

I'd appreciate comments on this hand.

Thanks in advance.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](4BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](6BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10BB

--edit: fixed (miss-)converted hand

Langerz · #2 08-07-2007, 09:18 PM

My comment is that Poker room is rigged since the J of clubs gave you both a pair and a flush draw.

I'd fix the hand history since its hard to tell if you have a flush here or not.

Zach6668 · #3 08-07-2007, 09:28 PM

Assuming it's not supposed to be the Jc on the flop, I play it the same.

I'd like to fold the river though (assuming we don't have a flush), but I'd have a hard time doing it, especially in a btn-blind battle.

TheDudeChad · #4 08-07-2007, 09:57 PM

I play this the same.

I don't know if we're supposed to fold the river here, but I wouldn't.

Zach6668 · #5 08-07-2007, 09:59 PM

Ok, now that it's edited, I still play it the same.

bobhalford · #6 08-07-2007, 10:04 PM

Gosh that's pretty tough. Could he do this with J9? AT? KJ?

It looks like your hand sucks here. If I was villain with KJ, I wouldn't even consider raising this river. But not everyone thinks like me. Even with AJ I'd be hardpressed to raise. Problem is, button should have capped preflop with AK/JJ, especially with his position. So we can discount those hands a bit. K9 is kinda unlikely but possible. What hand raises this river but doesn't raise the flop or the turn? That's the one thing that puzzles me about this hand. I've seen this kind of play before with AA or 55/33. They wait until the river, it's strange. Maybe this is one of those times. But we have no idea if this is the kind of guy to do that.

So I guess this post kinda argues for a bet/call on the river. The only hand that makes any sense is JT, and there are only 2 combinations of that hand.

The only thing that turns this into a fold for me is that villain should expect us to call with AQ, so he shouldn't be doing this with J9. It's even a bit frisky for him to raise this river with JT as you could have AK. This isn't the kind of board that you can raise the river without at least a set.

So because I can't place him on any other hand that beats us other than a strange JT and K9/AK , I'd call. It's just such a puzzle to me what this guy has that I call. I'd have to see it to believe it. Whatever he has, I'm making a note.

Zach6668 · #7 08-07-2007, 10:08 PM

Like I said, I want to fold the river, but I doubt I would in practice.

Anyone think of a c/c now that we have some showdown value?

Langerz · #8 08-07-2007, 10:22 PM

Dang this hand got a lot more interesting when you corrected it.

There is no way I could c/c the river and I don't think we should.

Also if I'm honest with myself I don't think there is anyway I could b/f the river, but I think maybe we should.

Did he have QJ? I'd think he'd raise the flop. I'm guessing something weird that he slow played, but shouldn't have.

Romulet · #9 08-07-2007, 11:01 PM

As played for me!

Westley878 · #10 08-07-2007, 11:37 PM

"There is no way I could c/c the river and I don't think we should."

Given the way the villain played this hand, he most likely either has a passively played Qx, a pokect pair below Qx, or Ace high. If he somehow has just a naked ace like A4/A2 hes probaby gonna fold if we bet the river on that card. If he has a lower pocked pair like 66, he'll probably fold that also. Its very unlikely the villain has a worse Jx that will pay off since that means he would have to either call the flop with nothing or have JcXc and play very passively. For the same reason its very unlikely the villain has Tx. What Im getting at is very simple: Although the Jack on the river makes us a pair this card is a huge action killer for those times we do have the best hand becuz most lesser hands will now fold unless our opponent is an extreme showdown monkey. Obviously if the villain has a better hand than us, hes either calling or raising. So IMO, check/calling the river in this very spot will be the optimal line against most opponents. So I think you should change your opinion on the river play.

"Also if I'm honest with myself I don't think there is anyway I could b/f the river, but I think maybe we should."

I dont understand why this is a tough spot....This is an extremely easy fold once raised. Bet/calling is definitely a large money loser in this spot. This is a check/call or bet/fold situation, and based on the final board and the way this hand played out, Im convinced that check/calling will make/save more money than bet/folding. Since were unlikely to get value from betting, our best chance to make money on the river is to induce a hopeless bluff.