Any Full Tilt regulars on here? NL 200 and NL 100

[AceCR9]

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Today for example I watched GabyGaby 3-bet a CO raise from the BTN with 45s. He then flopped a FD on an ace-high wet board and c-bet his draw as opposed to peeling the free turn. Lucky for him his opponent slowplayed AK and got burnt. I know GG is a solid winning player but now that I know SC's are in his 3-bet range I also know that it's likely he'll 3-bet AQ, KQ, and possibly AJs (maybe even wider) against LP raisers. I also know that there is basically no flop he won't cbet since this was the strongest candidate you'd ever get for taking a free card as opposed to risking being c/r out of the pot. If he pulls stunts like that on me my adaptation will be to decide on a suitable calling range (including the premium pairs) that will be considerably higher in equity terms than his 3-bet range. I'll then c/r him AI on most/all flops and let the maths do the work - he'll usually miss, I put the commitment decision on him and in general I'll have a stronger range. Our variance will be epic but it's his choice if he wants to pull 3-bet squeeze plays with SC's against a regular that simply won't stand for it.

You know the former USSR and the US never nuked each other for a reason....it's lose-lose.

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lol

if hes good he will recognize you doing this fairly quickly, then adjust.

don't CR AI a lot w/ mediocre hands- do it with occasional bluffs, any decent draw(FD or OESD), and do it with good hands as well. maintain a reasonable image so your bluffs will get respect.

also if your over 100bb, mix in some 4 bets vs his range( hence it can def be fine to 4 bet JJ-QQ, AK)

[Acevader]

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Today for example I watched GabyGaby 3-bet a CO raise from the BTN with 45s. He then flopped a FD on an ace-high wet board and c-bet his draw as opposed to peeling the free turn. Lucky for him his opponent slowplayed AK and got burnt.

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RR with 54s OTB vs a CO raise is super standard

that spot is one of the biggest money makers, the CO just calling AK is going to put him in all sorts of terrible spots

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If he pulls stunts like that on me my adaptation will be to decide on a suitable calling range (including the premium pairs) that will be considerably higher in equity terms than his 3-bet range. I'll then c/r him AI on most/all flops and let the maths do the work - he'll usually miss, I put the commitment decision on him and in general I'll have a stronger range. Our variance will be epic but it's his choice if he wants to pull 3-bet squeeze plays with SC's against a regular that simply won't stand for it.

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there aren't many premium hands(and ones like AK miss over half the flops)

so you'll be checkshoving Ahigh/smallmidpair a ton with this plan

if he gets you to stop 4betting alltoghether he's already won, or if he gets you to massively drop the steals in this spot, since it gives him more opportunities in one of the most profitable spots in fr, OTB folded to you

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I agree a lot of players squeeze SC's there and so do I sometimes. As you allude the other strategy is to 4-bet light but since I know he cbets any flop he 3-bets c/r works just fine as well. Yes there will be times where he calls and I'm drawing very dead but there will also be times he'll fold the better hand. Crucially on average my hand will be stronger and I'll be putting the final tough decision on him. As a strategy it will work just fine unless/until he adapts to it. Which sort of proves my point; I expect gabygaby is good enough to adapt to it and in turn I'll readapt and so on and so forth. The final result is high variance and high resource expenditure trying to figure out each others game. Meanwhile a fish with K10s who folds to our 3-bet war but may well have stacked off with TPTK to one of us sits with his buy in still in front of him.

[AceCR9]

your missing something still

[Acevader]

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lol

if hes good he will recognize you doing this fairly quickly, then adjust.

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This only serves to emphasis my point. He will adjust and then I'll have to re-adjust and so it continues. The only point I'm making is that whilst two good players war the fish are probably folding their trouble hands.

For example, say I'm in MP and raise AQs and a fish calls with A9o (as they do). Aggro-solid-reg (ASR) on BTN finds 99 and choses to squeeze the pot. I'll either 4-bet light or fold. Fish will almost certainly fold irrespective of the action. If I 4-bet light ASR will either fold or we'll end up in a flip situation for stacks.

What if ASR just calls and the flop comes:

A,5,6 or, 9,5,3 or A,9,4 or, or, or.... There are few ways ASR will stack me and vice versa (I'll not even stack off on the A94 flop vs ASR) but there are many, many ways that fish will stack off to one of us. He'll probably give most of his buy in to me on the first flop, most of it to ASR on the second flop and all of it to ASR on the third flop. Good regulars want this guy in the pot with us yet by attacking each other non-stop you just give them the information they need to fold hands we don't want them to fold. Cash game poker, and especially Full Ring, is a game where post-flop skill dominates and yet with 3-4 betting wars preflop between good regs you pretty much remove that from the game.

Perhaps you view fish's call as dead money that's there for the taking. However, I'm not so interested in taking 3.5bb off fish every now and again. I'd rather I get him stitched up for a 100bb pot a little less often and if you let him see flops with his dominated hands that will happen.

[SimaoMacaco]

I am sure it has value what you are saying but its just such an 'old boys' network. It rings thus.. reg says:

"look here old boy, its more profitable if you muck your hand pre as i am gonna take my shot at the fish here". When you are IP on him, you can have your turn, i'll lay my hand down old boy.

Sure this is great for regs, bad for fish, and seems a bit like collusion to me. club regs v fishes.. That besides it only takes one reg to decide to squeeze a bit, rather than muck that borderline hand, and then you have to do the same. The prison's dillema is a wonderful thing - and a balanced strategy will emerge as the most optimal solution. During the cold was there was a lot of moving weapons around, war games, etc.. as the threat has to be seen to be real in order for a balance to occur.

Besides, human nature being what it is can u be sure that Narena did not 3bet the odd 78s vs you, clearly against the interbalistic missle treaty aka naughty hellfire club.

Personally i want to kill everyone at the table, regs, fish, the whole lot.. geez 3banging the regs offers me a great source of pleasure, esp.. when i hit a straight or some other odd ball hand.

Also, i think bottomset is right, something i think a lot lately, finding a range and going with it vs these 3bets is not so easy for the reasons he described.

Common guys, crank up those 3bets, lets go to war.

[Acevader]

Simao, I know Narena has gotten out of line against me from time to time in the same way I've done the same to him. On occasion we flex our muscles and fire a few warning shots but crucially I think we are both working on a strategy of avoiding all out war. That's not soft playing or collusion it's just a sensible strategic approach that is adopted by both of us. Mutually assured destruction (god I love that phrase) is what keeps either one of us from hitting that trigger too many times.

[Acevader]

Bottom line is Narena has an 800k hand sample he posted up recently and the top winners all practice avoidance. BareAce11 was high on that list and he used to tangle with regs (i.e me) a lot but I noticed of late he's also settled down and seems to be generally avoiding constant running battles with regs. That speaks volumes to me.

[Smart Money]

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Its not a lose-lose if you are willing to go one step beyond your opponent.

If you both exert the same pressure on each other then yes it will be a wild rollercoaster ride but if you are willing to push just a little harder then you will profit in the long run.

(Edit: There will be a lot of variance in the middle but that is why we have big BRs amirite?)

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Yes- you will profit in the reg Vs reg battles IF you're good enough and prepared to put in the time and effort, but at what greater expense?

I suspect most of the regs who like to get over-involved with other regs may show a profit in those battles, but overall their win-rate is lower than the more sensible regs.

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no, especially if they play taggish. DUCY?

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Well, according to a now near-1,000,000 hand sample of $1/2 it appears to be true of the Full Tilt tables. (I posted a 800k sample of the biggest winners a short while ago on this thread- as Acevadar mentioned above.)

You play 1000NL right? There is clearly such a vast difference in the make-up of the table in terms of players' ability and experience that optimal strategy between these stakes must differ immensely.

[Smart Money]

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lol

if hes good he will recognize you doing this fairly quickly, then adjust.

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This only serves to emphasis my point. He will adjust and then I'll have to re-adjust and so it continues. The only point I'm making is that whilst two good players war the fish are probably folding their trouble hands.

For example, say I'm in MP and raise AQs and a fish calls with A9o (as they do). Aggro-solid-reg (ASR) on BTN finds 99 and choses to squeeze the pot. I'll either 4-bet light or fold. Fish will almost certainly fold irrespective of the action. If I 4-bet light ASR will either fold or we'll end up in a flip situation for stacks.

What if ASR just calls and the flop comes:

A,5,6 or, 9,5,3 or A,9,4 or, or, or.... There are few ways ASR will stack me and vice versa (I'll not even stack off on the A94 flop vs ASR) but there are many, many ways that fish will stack off to one of us. He'll probably give most of his buy in to me on the first flop, most of it to ASR on the second flop and all of it to ASR on the third flop. Good regulars want this guy in the pot with us yet by attacking each other non-stop you just give them the information they need to fold hands we don't want them to fold. Cash game poker, and especially Full Ring, is a game where post-flop skill dominates and yet with 3-4 betting wars preflop between good regs you pretty much remove that from the game.

Perhaps you view fish's call as dead money that's there for the taking. However, I'm not so interested in taking 3.5bb off fish every now and again. I'd rather I get him stitched up for a 100bb pot a little less often and if you let him see flops with his dominated hands that will happen.

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I think this post explains it well.

No-one is talking about completely avoiding other regs (these battles can be fun and are certainly the hands that develop a players' game the most- in preparation for higher stakes), or colluding in any way.

It's just that at the $1/$2 tables, as least when I play the majority of my hands, there are so many poor players around that it is detrimental to <u>purposely target</u> other regs at the expense of the free money on offer.

This is just my view based on what I see at these tables.

[Smart Money]

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http://www.pokerplayerwinnings.com/

Vizer is obviously going through a sick downswing.

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I know the guy who started that web site. It is still in "construction". The site does not datamine all the tables yet.

It will be an excellent web site when it will be ready! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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What's the current deal with this website?

It's been up now for a few weeks, but in it's current state it's not much use as it still only datamines a small percentage of all hands played.

JPhil007- Does the guy behind it know when/if it will be able to datamine all hands?

I agree that it has the potential to be a useful motivational tool for players.

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The problem is that he does not have enough computers right now to datamine every table.

Around 35% of my hands are in the database, so he will have to get many more computers obv.


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I think I've got an old Commodore 64 lying around somewhere if he wants it.