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#191
10-21-2007, 01:07 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
Well, do poor uneducated people generally scores lower than moderately wealthy (and upwards) educated people?
If so, what are we really meauring? As for the rest, I'll have to look at it laters - I'm late for appointment as it is. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] 
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#192
10-21-2007, 01:49 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
Well, do poor uneducated people generally scores lower than moderately wealthy (and upwards) educated people? If so, what are we really meauring? [/ QUOTE ] First, reputable studies generally control for demographic differences as much as possible. If your point is that income level affects IQ, so IQ can't be a good measure of something genetic, you may be confusing correllation with causation and what a correllation shows. If anything, I suspect the causal arrow would go the other direction in this case. It makes intuitive sense that smart people figure out how to make more money than less smart people. They then pass their smarter genes on to what end up being smarter kids who come from wealthier families.
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#193
10-21-2007, 02:47 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
It makes intuitive sense that smart people figure out how to make more money than less smart people. They then pass their smarter genes on to what end up being smarter kids who come from wealthier families. [/ QUOTE ] Not completely untrue, but certainly not the whole story.
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#194
10-21-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
think that's an excellent argument for an actual effect. Compare the scores of poor rural Chinese with: - Poor Africans (African culture) - Wealthy African Americans (US culture) - Wealthy Japanese (Japanese culutre) - Poor South Koreans (Korean culture) - Second generation Taiwanese Americans (US culture) - The poorest Eastern European country. Where do you think the clustering will be? Care to put money on it? Also, what do you think of the common claim that race differences are more pronounced the more g-loaded the test is? [/ QUOTE ] Phil, From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes little sense that race and intelligence are strongly linked. The various races of the world began to diverge about 100,000 years ago in waves of immigration from Africa, long after humans evolved their large brains, which took millions of years of evolution. So the races of the world are a relatively new phenomenon, whereas, human intelligence is much more ancient. (DNA analysis, further, clearly shows that the greatest genetic variation exists, not between races, but within races.) For further interesting discussion along these lines and along the lines of genetics, artificial intelligence and quantum physics, see “Visions,” by Michio Kaku.
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#195
10-21-2007, 04:11 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Well, do poor uneducated people generally scores lower than moderately wealthy (and upwards) educated people? If so, what are we really meauring? [/ QUOTE ] First, reputable studies generally control for demographic differences as much as possible. If your point is that income level affects IQ, so IQ can't be a good measure of something genetic, you may be confusing correllation with causation and what a correllation shows. If anything, I suspect the causal arrow would go the other direction in this case. It makes intuitive sense that smart people figure out how to make more money than less smart people. They then pass their smarter genes on to what end up being smarter kids who come from wealthier families. [/ QUOTE ] No, I'm not confusing causation with correlation and I'm very well aware that they regress the data for demographic variables, I've done enough survey research in psychology myself to know how it is done. I am however in personal opinion from my own knowledge believing the standard IQ tests are measuring culturally significant symbols, logic and tasks and not a valid general measure of intelligence. Or to simplify: I believe they are measuring cultural traits and using the data to support a notion that ethnicity is the explaining factor. As I did earlier you can exemplify this in the extreme by figuring out how you would measure the intelligence of the first person to use the wheel, or you could attempt to measure the intelligence of someone you do not know the language of. There have been studies on social construction that show that street children who know how to read and write are largely scoring very badly on math puzzles solved on paper but are very capable of doing in if you set it in context of trade. clicky
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#196
10-21-2007, 04:21 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
http://www.literacyonline.org/Projec.../braz_out.html
This is not the kind of source I am willing to give automatic credence. Any hack can whip up an internet page. Was this research published in a reputable, peer-reviewed journal? edited to add: I am particularly skeptical when I see an ed-school attached to the report. In my experience, ed schools are full of sloppy hacks who can't cut it in real academia. Not saying they are all bad, just most of them.
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#197
10-21-2007, 04:34 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.literacyonline.org/Projec.../braz_out.html This is not the kind of source I am willing to give automatic credence. Any hack can whip up an internet page. Was this research published in a reputable, peer-reviewed journal? edited to add: I am particularly skeptical when I see an ed-school attached to the report. In my experience, ed schools are full of sloppy hacks who can't cut it in real academia. Not saying they are all bad, just most of them. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it is a famous study in psychology and very reputable, that site is just a summary by/for amateurs I think. There are written many papers and books on the issue. You can look up Nunes if you want or have a look at the book 'Exploring the nature of street mathematics'. Review here. Some looking around in databases or uni libraries should also yield tons of material independent from the original researchers.
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#198
10-21-2007, 06:21 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
"Sending ill equipped students into valuable university spots simply because they're the 'right' race offends me to the core. Law schools are the worst offenders here." What are the statistics on exactly how many "ill equipped students" are going to law school? And are they acceped to law school "simply" because they're the right race, or is race one thing that is factored in to the equation? [/ QUOTE ] The study I heard in passing suggested that fewer blacks were now lawyers than would have been sans AA. The failure rate of blacks placed in schools above their academic station was a huge drag on the total number of black lawyers. Placing blacks strictly by merit would have led to more lawyers total. Google around and you'll find it. It's only a couple months old. [ QUOTE ] I'm with Colin Powell here. If a few hundred black kids who otherwise would not have the opportunity to go to law school get the chance each year becuase of affirmative action, what great harm is done to the republic? [/ QUOTE ] Anything to assuage white guilt, eh?
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#199
10-21-2007, 08:25 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
Name is Sander, here's a link:
http://www.adversity.net/Sander/RHS_main_frame.htm
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#200
10-21-2007, 09:21 PM
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Re: What Would David Say About This Remark?
[ QUOTE ]
Name is Sander, here's a link: http://www.adversity.net/Sander/RHS_main_frame.htm [/ QUOTE ] Makes sense. There's affirmative action in poker. But not based on race. Lousy players get lucky and reach the final table in the WSOP ME. Then they feel obligated to play in the big game. Most get destroyed.
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Linear Mode
