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#11
10-05-2007, 02:42 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.
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#12
10-05-2007, 03:31 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted. [/ QUOTE ] You may be thinking of chess rules here.
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#13
10-05-2007, 03:36 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people automatically think it was an angle shoot because player 1 called prematurely. Player 2 may still be deciding how much to bet. Please re-read the statement above about rule 13 - I believe the rule says "releasing chips" which the player clearly did not do. If the bold part is supposed to mean something in this situation it doesn't. No opponent showed a winning hand while betting was taking place. Now, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5). [/ QUOTE ] Please don't come near me or play at my table.
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#14
10-05-2007, 03:47 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted. [/ QUOTE ] Because of the way the chips were assembled and pushed I think he's made a bet and would rule that way as mentioned elsewhere. But the posters here need to realize that a significant number of floor would rule the way you see it. Two lessons here. One is don't count on decisions to go your way or the way you think is logical. Second is wait for the action to be completely clear before committing your own chips. ~ Rick
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#15
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
And if the action is not completely clear even after your opponent has acted, get the ruling in advance of yours.
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#16
10-05-2007, 03:57 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
INow, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5). [/ QUOTE ] Defense against your clear malicious angle is to put out chips (assuming you are betting part of your stack) all at once and be ready to think quickly when an angling opponent such as yourself says "allin". In other words think before you make the initial bet whether or not you are willing to play for all your chips against your type of angle shot and if so be ready to say "I call" real fast in response to your "allin". Most floor will rule action made and accepted. ~ Rick
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#17
10-05-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted. [/ QUOTE ] You may be thinking of chess rules here. [/ QUOTE ] This is generally the rule in my room. If you have not brought your hand back you can still change your action, however the way that the chips were put together here and pushed out I would expect that a floor would rule this as an all in bet.
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#18
10-05-2007, 04:19 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted. [/ QUOTE ] He didn't grab a few chips, then move them forward. He stacked all his chips, then pushed them forward. While some floors may allow him to take back his action, this should be a binding all in. Are we really going to allow someone to push all the chips forward, keep a finger on each stack, gauge the opponents reaction, then take back parts of each stack, or pull them all back? I don't think so. If simply taking your hands off your chips meant a bet, if I stack my chips close then take them off does this become an all in bet? No. Pushing a stack of chips forward is a bet. Most places will allow you to lift a stack of chips forward, and those that leave your hand are the bet, but pushing them forward and then trying to take them back in usually not allowed.
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#19
10-05-2007, 04:22 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] INow, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5). [/ QUOTE ] Defense against your clear malicious angle is to put out chips (assuming you are betting part of your stack) all at once and be ready to think quickly when an angling opponent such as yourself says "allin". In other words think before you make the initial bet whether or not you are willing to play for all your chips against your type of angle shot and if so be ready to say "I call" real fast in response to your "allin". Most floor will rule action made and accepted. ~ Rick [/ QUOTE ] How is this a malicious angle? If I know somebody is making a stab at the pot on a bluff/middle-low pair. If I allow them to put the full bet of their intention out, they will then be pot committed to call if I raise all in. Now if I say all in immediately it obviously shows strength #1, and #2 it allows the person to re-think the situation as they are now playing for all their chips (or mine for that matter, but I don't do this unless I have a larger stack). Sometimes they look me up, but most of the time they fold. I'm just curious as to how that is a malicious angle? I see it as an awesome play.
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#20
10-05-2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
[ QUOTE ]
no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe I should clarify this. When he moved his hand forward it did constitute a bet, just not an all in bet. He should have to atleast bet the minimum.
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