OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)

[cts]

fwiw the NL hands are 100% cheating

[emerson]

So you have a very blatant and greedy cheater. But how many more subtle and not so greedy cheaters are there? I'd guess there are many more that are not nearly as bold. How could anyone play on this site?

[GoodEats]

I was initially convinced that this was a BS conspiracy theory spun by bitter pros. After talking to other pros who played graycat, and analyzing my own hand histories with him, I am now convinced that cheating took place on AP.

I think the most likely explanation is as follows...

Graycat, DOUBLEDRAG, and Steamroller were able to see hole cards and used this ability to cheat.

(It is possible that the people behind this cheating are or were associated with the site, and that they used existing dormant accounts to cheat. That could explain severe differences in past and present records of these accounts.)

After cheating the pros, these accounts then dumped chips HU to accounts such as SUPERCARDM55, who played short sessions without cheating in order to make the accounts appear legitimate for the purposes of cashing out.

I would like to see a list of the other accounts that received the dumped chips. I saw an account named something like "PIRATE_PKR" playing DONKOFHOLDEM and calvinhobbes right after graycat, and I would like to know if this is a real player or an account related to the cheating.

In closing, it sucks that AP's negligence allowed this to happen. It also sucks that they have no motivation to admit that players were cheated. I am sure they feel that refunding the money to graycat's victims would permanently damage the reputation of the site. Still, I hope that we can make sure that the people involved in this graycat business are not allowed to keep the money. Perhaps Seifdonk should keep the money as his personal online BR; this would enable restitution in a less embarrassing manner.

-GoodEats

[stuckinpgh]

The reason I'm not convinced this was an inside job is simply why would they need to dump the chips. They could just "cash" them out with an internal transfer behind the scenes. Why blatantly move the chips from one account to the other in a huge game and hope nobody notices?

After looking over some of the same hh's that Eats saw I agree, there is definitely cheating going on with these accounts.

I haven't seen any of these accounts, has anyone else. Anyone else think it's possible that AP just confiscated the funds and closed the accounts. By not telling anyone they could a. keep the money and b. still claim nothing shady happened.

I'd say keep on the looking for an AP software update, but it updates everyday anyway.

[GoodEats]

The cheating doesn't need to involve someone from the company, but it would make things easier.

I was thinking it could be a past or present employee who knew about the software, cashout proceedures, etc. If it was someone with the company, they'd be doing it for themselves and hoping that the cheating would never be noticed.

At the same time, it could be anyone, and there is no evidence that anyone associated with AP is involved.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I'm not convinced this was an inside job is simply why would they need to dump the chips. They could just "cash" them out with an internal transfer behind the scenes. Why blatantly move the chips from one account to the other in a huge game and hope nobody notices?

After looking over some of the same hh's that Eats saw I agree, there is definitely cheating going on with these accounts.

I haven't seen any of these accounts, has anyone else. Anyone else think it's possible that AP just confiscated the funds and closed the accounts. By not telling anyone they could a. keep the money and b. still claim nothing shady happened.

I'd say keep on the looking for an AP software update, but it updates everyday anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your speculation as to why this would not be an inside job relies on the assumption that an inside job means complete and total access with cooperation of various departments. When a couple of insiders are not on the up and up, it doesn't mean they don't have to cover their tracks from the rest of the organization.

[MaverickUSC]

POTRIPPER needs to be added to the list of names here. I am friends with two of the players on that 1k ft and it was oh so obv there too.

Devo

[Dan Druff]

It seems that the general consensus here is that Graycat's weird play began very shortly after the last major software update. If that's true, the chances of cheating having actually occurred and it being an inside job BOTH increase greatly.

It is very possible that AP hired on additional programmers to complete their most recent major overhaul of the site. It would make sense because they probably maintain few programmers for day-to-day maintenance (as there really isn't all that much work to do), while completely changing the look-and-feel of the site is a major undertaking. If we can assume that the existing programmers were honest, bringing unknown new faces into the mix increases the chance of a security breach exponentially. All it takes is one guy who realizes how much money changes hands at the high limit games, and how easy it would be to give an accomplice access to a superuser account that can see the cards.

Let me put it another way. If you were a relatively poor temp programmer from a third-world country, and you came to realize that simply slipping a few passwords to a friend could potentially make you hundreds of thousands of dollars with little possible consequence if caught, would you be tempted to do so?

Good Eats' theory is the best one I've heard so far. It appears that three accounts were used to cheat (GRAYCAT, DBLDRAG, STEAMROLLER), while two were used to receive dumped chips and NOT cheat (SUPERCARDM55, PIRATE_PKR). The two "honest" accounts, after receiving the dumped money from the cheaters, would then play 1 or 2 "legitimate" sessions where they'd play like maniacs and actually lose some (but not a lot) of money. Then they would request a cashout, thereby avoiding the scrutiny that might otherwise be placed upon the accounts that actually cheated.

The following questions need to be asked of AP. Hopefully we'll get an answer:

1) Has GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, or DBLDRAG ever cashed out since the software was patched?

2) How much play did SUPERCARDM55 and PIRATE_PKR have prior to the chip-dumping? How much play did they have afterwards? Did they seemingly just receive chips via dump, play 1 or 2 sessions, and request a cashout?

3) Where do the IPs of all 5 accounts resolve to? Do they match the IPs originally used on the accounts?

4) Do SUPERCARDM55 and/or PIRATE_PKR have addresses outside the United States? Do either of them live in the same country as those who programmed AP?

5) What relation do SUPERCARDM55 and PIRATE_PKR seem to have with the other 3 accounts? Were their IPs from similar areas? Chip dumping was clear, so why was it done, and who seems to be behind it? Will you (AP) at least admit that chip dumping occurred between these individuals?


The biggest problem here is that AP simply cannot admit to this if true. There is no way for them to refund anyone's lost money without implying that these accusations are true, and that a serious breach of security occurred. I like to think of myself as an honest guy, but if I owned AP, I'd also be steadfastly denying all of this. Admitting that this occurred is basically suicide for any poker room.

[PartyGirlUK]

Hopefully if they don't admit this happened we can expose them enough that when it's seen that they are comprimised AND they cover it up, it's good night AP.

Really, the need to get independent, internationally respected auditors in. Open EVERYTHING up to the auditors, then make FULL retribution to those cheated, close the loophole, and introduce measures to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[Dan Druff]

Ugh...

SUPERCARDM55 had not been reported yet to AP Security, nor were they on the ball enough to figure out the obvious GRAYCAT chip-dump to him on August 30th.

I "officially" reported SUPERCARDM55 tonight, and hopefully he will get frozen soon, as well.

I also told AP Security to investigate EVERY player who has played DOUBLEDRAG, GRAYCAT, or STEAMROLLER heads up (since August) and won a lot of money. 100% sure that every such player will end up being an unknown name who "won" via chip dump. SUPERCARDM55 definitely fits that mold.

I'm just really bothered that they failed to turn up SUPERCARDM55 on their own. I mean, Graycat played the guy on August 30th and "lost" 55k incredibly fast heads up. That doesn't stick out like a sore thumb?