What do you think about Middle Eastern relations?

[Bill Haywood]

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the only way people on either side will ever live in peace is if the palestinians somehow come to genuinely accept a 2 state solution.

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I agree two states is the only realistic way forward, provided it's a genuine Palestinian state. We are in alternative universes -- there's been no settlement because Israel sabotages the negotiations with offers designed to be rejected. The "90%" being just the most recent. The turn toward Hamas was because the PLO could not deliver because Israel wasn't giving. I believe a strong majority of Palestinians would accept a two state solution. In fact, most would be happy to become Israeli citizens it it would just make the war stop. Even Hamas knows Israel is not going away. Clayton Swisher's book _The Truth About Camp David_ gives a 180 degree different interpretation of the negotiations than you are used to. I wish the Israeli majority who wants two states had influence over the people calling the shots.

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I tend to see things less black and white.

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C'mon man, this is a paragraph medium and you're asking for chapters.

[Goater]

Predictably, I disagree.

I have read a few things espousing this point of view, but it is generally accepted that the offers that Israel has made have been genuine and workable. I have not read the book you cite, but a quick google shows that the author is at odds with the bulk of literature regarding this subject, including that written by those who were there. Also, he propagates a variety of Palestinian propaganda myths: the "murder" of Rachel Corrie, Jenin "massacre", the Al-Dura "murder", including misrepresenting a number of UN resolutions.

In any case, I dont want to get into a detailed discussion of the minutiae of the various offers, but on a very general level, if I was a Palestinian and the conditions i lived in were as bad as claimed and all I wanted was a state of my own so that my children could grow up without "repression" by the Israeli Army, etc... the offers made would have been snapped up by me.

But the average Palestinian does not get a say in what to accept or reject. A small bunch of corrupt, brutal, power hungry extremists decide everything and control what the average person knows about "negotiations". Even if the average Palestinian wanted a 2 state solution (and I see absolutely no evidence of this) they have no way of pressuring their leaders. And your analysis of why Hamas took power is certainly novel. I have actually never heard that opinion before. The overwhelming majority of credible commentators agree that Palestinians were sick and tired of the corruption and crookedness of the Fatah regime and rejected them by voting Hamas. Combined with a growing agreement with Hamas' aims, methods and beliefs, and a belief that Hamas had "defeated" Israel in Gaza, Fatah were trounced. I must say I am shocked that you believe that Palestinians rejected Fatah due to their inability to deliver a 2 state solution, something which is never promoted or considered when Fatah leaders speak to their people in arabic. There are countless examples of Arafat returning from negotiations and telling Palestinians in Arabic that they will not accept anything less than full return of land, sovereignty over Jerusalem and the right of return and even then only as a stage in the eventual destruction of the state of Israel. Fatah were never supported on the basis that the would deliver a 2 state solution - that is laughable. It was almost the opposite - Fatah were the historical spearhead of the struggle against the existance of Israel and were always seen as such by Palestinians.

Israelis on the other hand have specifically elected a number of governments on the specific platform of delivering a peace deal with the Palestinians - and are able to change their governments regularly, putting more pressure on politicians to actually deliver. Peres even went behind the countries back to kick start the Oslo process and Rabin was murdered because of it. Barak was elected on this premise too, Netanyahu and Sharon were only elected when the violence was so great that the people needed a "strong" leader to confront the violence and protect the lives of Israelis. Real concessions (such as the pullout from Gaza) have been made. Have you ever been to Palestine or Israel? I can assure you that in Israel, the majority of people support a 2 state solution if genuine security is gained in return. And im not talking about a narrow view of 2 states - I mean a comprehensive and reasonable solution. Why on earth would it be in Israels' interests to negotiate, raise the bar of expectation each time and deliberately cause negotiations to fail? What would this gain for a democratically elected government other than to dispirit the electorate and probably ruin their chances of reelection?

I have no doubt that many Palestinians wouldnt mind becoming Israeli citizens - for the standard of care that the government provides as compared with that of the Palestinian leadership or as a step in the eventual destruction of Israel.

Please explain this statement: "I wish the Israeli majority who wants two states had influence over the people calling the shots." Im not sure what you mean or who you are talking about?

[GimmmickAcct]

Alot of great points made in this thread from all sides.

What do you guys think about the Iranian president coming to an American university? Personally I do not object. The reason being that although he is on a much larger scale, there have been people here at home in the USA with very radical and somewhat crazy and anti-American ideals who try to project their ideals on others. This is no different from the case in question IMO. What do you guys think?

[John Kilduff]

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Alot of great points made in this thread from all sides.

What do you guys think about the Iranian president coming to an American university? Personally I do not object. The reason being that although he is on a much larger scale, there have been people here at home in the USA with very radical and somewhat crazy and anti-American ideals who try to project their ideals on others. This is no different from the case in question IMO. What do you guys think?

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I think it's good, because the more Ahmadinejad opens his mouth, the more Westerners get a glimpse of what the Iranian regime is all about and of the kind of mentality we are up against.

[in48092]

I find Ahmedinijad and much of the leadership of Hizballah to be disturbing, because unlike many of their contemporaries, they acutally believe alot of the religious rhetoric they spew. I'm pretty sure Ahmedinijad actually believes the Mahdi will come down and shoot lighting bolts out of his ass at all the nonbelievers. Likewise the leadershgip of Hizballah is loyal to Iran because they genuinely believe in the pricipal of Wilayat al Faqih. There's something to be said for this type of belief because it leads to relative incorruptability, but at the same time they can't be engaged with the same language that those who pretend to be religious and actually just want money and power can. I/the west understand the latter, but the former is a very foriegn entity,a nd one that does not speak the same language as us. They are very much concerned with what will happen in the next life. To the point that it strongly influences their behavior in this life. I was recently talking with am Iraqi Shi'a academic. he was telling me how he has personally met many of the Shi'a figures of influence. Al Hakim, the currnet leader of the Badr (not to be confused with Sadr) group is, according to my Iraqi source, not religious at all. However he derives his legitimacy from being the brother of the now deceased Iraqi Shia spiritual leader. Guys like him speak the language of money and power. Guys like Ahmedinijad and Nasrallah don't. Thats not to say the aformetioned are incapable of logic, they just are moivated by a different agenda then the vast majority of the worlds politicians.

Oh, and I have no problem having people like Ahmedinijad speak at institutes of higher learning in the U.S. Lets us play the freedom of speech high ground and all that...

[Bill Haywood]

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if I was a Palestinian and the conditions i lived in were as bad as claimed and all I wanted was a state of my own so that my children could grow up without "repression" by the Israeli Army, etc... the offers made would have been snapped up by me.

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The problem is that the 90% offer would not have provided those baseline conditions. Palestine would have been broken up into cantons, with Israeli land in between. Israel would control movement within Palestine. It's like Israel would give back the shelves of a supermarket, but not the aisles.

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Please explain this statement: "I wish the Israeli majority who wants two states had influence over the people calling the shots." Im not sure what you mean or who you are talking about?

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The government has continued swallowing Palestine, and making offers designed to be rejected. The process is pretty much complete -- there is no Palestine left to become a genuine state -- only atomized corrals.

Yes, people were sick of Fatah. But if Fatah could have delivered a state, that would have transformed the situation. Extermination of Israel is not on the table. It remains in the rhetoric of the most extreme, but most people are like your sentence, "if I were a Palestinian...." Most are desperate for a two state solution, and know that even that possibility is slipping away. The wall is still snaking through the olive orchards, the settlements are still expanding...

[John Kilduff]

I think you managed to somehow respond to the wrong poster.

[Goater]

The settlements have not significantly expanded since Oslo and the government is actively preventing growth outside of already existing settlements.

recent article

Israel has also shown that it can and will enforce withdrawals if it believes that it is in its interest to do so.

However, it will take a lot to convince Israelis living close to any future borders to support the withdrawal of settlement blocks that represent a physical barrier between them and the Palestinians. Remember that the distance between the border of the West Bank and the sea (ie: the width of Israel) is only 9 miles (15km) at its narrowest point in the center of the country. You think that these people want to be the new Sderot? (for those that dont know, Sderot is a border town inside Israel proper that has been bombarded almost daily since the withdrawal. 2053 rockets have been fired at southern Israel since the full withdrawal of Gaza).

There is plenty of Palestine to become a state and Israel has shown itself willing to make sacrifices and withdraw large numbers of people should a genuine deal be possible. The geography and topology of the West Bank and Jerusalem make a clean separation impossible and it will take compromise on both sides, but i believe it could be done if the will was there. I mean, whats the choice? Its either a deal or the Palestinians go on living like they do for another 40 years and on and on...

If you think that a deal that includes 90% of territory and a larger percentage of the population living in an independent Palestinian state is not a serious offer, Im not sure what would convince you.

And again, Fatah were never - NEVER - going to agree to a peace deal with Israel. To believe that they would or could you have to ignore the increasing Palestinian terrorism since the start of the Oslo peace process, the countless and totally consistent statements made to the public in arabic stating that they would never accept Israel, the most blatant incitement in official media, mosques, etc... the teaching of Palestinian children that the whole of Israel is Palestine and would be again through the blood of Palestinian "martyrs", the statements of Clinton and others regarding Arafats insincerity and what he described as Barak's "courageous" offers, etc...

Fatah and Arafat knew that they could never hope to survive in a (possibly democratic) independent Palestinian state. They would suddenly have had responsibility for health care, the economy, and general well being. Their corruption would have been sharply exposed and they would not have the old enemy, Israel, to blame Palestinians woes on. They would have been the address every poor Palestinian turned to to complain. You really think that egyptian Arafat cared one bit for the Palestinian people!? I suppose you have an answer for the billions of dollars in aid that they stole from their own people? The more the Palestinian people could be shown in the world media as poor, downtrodden, brutalised by Israel, etc... the more aid came flowing in and the more they could steal - all the while being on the international stage and creating a great anti Israel propaganda show. It was a win win situation for them/him.

And I see no reason to believe that "most [palestinian] people" just want a 2 state solution. Strange that they would overwhelmingly vote in Hamas (who wont even accept the existance of Israel and are fully dedicated to the destruction of Israel) if they really wanted a 2 state solution, isnt it? They have to take responsibility for their choices and they voted Hamas. Dosnt sound like a people "desperate" for the 2 state solution to me.

[Goater]

I was initially opposed to him speaking at the University - now im really not sure. Yes, he did make a fool out of himself, but he also got to spout his ridiculous propaganda, especially regarding the holocaust. His disgusting comments regarding such an issue - especially as he openly preaches his intention to commit another one - should bar him from such a stage. (actually, he degrades the significance of the holocaust BECAUSE he wishes another one, but anyway...)

Anyone who is surprised by his comments regarding homosexuals, for example, is simply not fully educated re him and his regime. If it takes such a stage to expose this aspect of his regime to many people, i suppose its a good thing, but i would be happier if people knew these things anyway.

It is clear that he sees such opportunities (including his request to visit ground zero) as a chance to ridicule the US and get his propaganda out and im not sure the US should assist him.

For the record, I dont believe this is a free speach issue at all.

[nicky g]

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The settlements have not significantly expanded since Oslo and the government is actively preventing growth outside of already existing settlements.

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The settlements have approximately doubled in population size since Oslo.

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And I see no reason to believe that "most [palestinian] people" just want a 2 state solution. Strange that they would overwhelmingly vote in Hamas (who wont even accept the existance of Israel and are fully dedicated to the destruction of Israel) if they really wanted a 2 state solution, isnt it? They have to take responsibility for their choices and they voted Hamas. Dosnt sound like a people "desperate" for the 2 state solution to me.

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13 years of representation by the party that rcognised Israel and supported a two state solution got them nowhwere. Even when Arafat, whom Israel blamed for everything, was replaced by the ultra-compliant Abbas, there was no movement - not even basic negotiations. Not to mention terrible Fatah misgovernment. Hardly surprising that Palestinains opted for change of tack - what would be the point in voting for Fatah whe it had a terrible track record on both gaining them a state and was absurdly corrupt and falling apart?

Even then, I remember polls showing that a third or so of people voting for Hamas still favoured a two state soltution (and Hamas actually won the popular vote by a very small margin, while most voter of Fatah can be presumed to have supported a 2-state solution). Futhermore, support for a two state soltution was much higher when it actually looked like a realistic prospect.