200/400 Badugi hand

[groth911t]

200/400 BOTE at the bellagio, full table.

Folds to the CO, who opens, Button folds, I threebet from SB with a24, Miami John calls from the BB, CO calls, everyone draws 1.

I lead out after catching offsuit paint, John calls, CO raises, call, call. 1, 1, pat.

I catch (a24)9. I c/r, John call, CO threebets. I call, John calls. Everyone stands pat.

Checks to the CO, he bets, I fold, John calls.

The CO is a NL player who seems fairly new to the mix games, but pretty tight in badugi. Miami John seems to know badugi very well.

I think the first two streets are pretty standard (though maybe some wouldn't lead out after bricking the first draw). I'm wondering about after the second draw (where i've heard everything from just c/c/stand pat to four betting), and on the river, where, IMO, i'm hardpressed to have either player beat. I'm wondering what some more experienced badugi players do on both streets. I'll post the winning and losing hands later.

[InWithTheBest]

Despite my inexperience in badugi, i remember the calculations made that the median badugi hand was somwhere around an 87xx or so. In a three way pot it looks like your cooked. Esp with the reads you described. That being said, I dont think i could break as the pot is now huge and you have a decent hand. I may be wrong, but id compare your hand to having 87532 in TDL. With this sort of action your pretty sure your beat but you hand is just too good to make a big mistake in a pot of this size. Looking forward to some people with more experience in badugi to respond.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Despite my inexperience in badugi, i remember the calculations made that the median badugi hand was somwhere around an 87xx or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played Badugi since the WSOP so I might be rusty, I think the median Badugi hand was A239. I think you should call on the river.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[groth911t]

what range of hands do you give the cutoff and miami john? what range of hands do I have to raise there?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
what range of hands do you give the cutoff and miami john? what range of hands do I have to raise there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Range of hands for John - to be polite, he is rather fishy I was told so he can have almost anything.

Heads up I am value betting a clean 7 or lower, 3 way I guess a clean 6 would get value bet and/or raised, or a dirty 5.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[groth911t]

From what I saw, John seemed to play ok, but it was towards end of a 15 hour session I was playing, so I might have been mistaken, and I didn't see him play all that many hands. He certainly understood some concepts that other players certainly did not seem to, based on a few convos we had.

But even not worrying about John's hand, what range of hands do I raise with on the turn? What range of hands will he threebet with. And what range of hands can the CO then bet into two players on the river?

I think my raising range against this player is probably a bad 9 or better on the turn, I would think the CO's range for 3betting would be a good 8 or better (assuming a value raise, not snow). My plan was to C/C the river until John patted behind me, that changed my opinion of the CO's range a bit.

FWIW, a Bellagio regular in the mix games (though usually 40/80) told me John has an 87 there every time.

Still would like to hear some more feedback before i post results.

[obi---one]

call the river. you are probably cooked but the pot is laying u some ridiculas odds, and u see some funny stuff in badugi.

btw, whoever says the median hand in badugi is a239 is way off imo.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my raising range against this player is probably a bad 9 or better on the turn, I would think the CO's range for 3betting would be a good 8 or better (assuming a value raise, not snow). My plan was to C/C the river until John patted behind me, that changed my opinion of the CO's range a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) WHY are you raising? Do you want the villain to fold a worse hand? Do you want him to break? You should be raising to shut out John, that will show value in the long run, but not because you are ahead.

2) A little side story, I played in a 1/2 Badugi game with Chris Bell, CK Hua, Raymer, and a few other well known faces. If Chris caught a Badugi, he is seeing a showdown - and thats final, no matter the strength. If CK caught a Badugi, he will pump the pot regardless of the strength of his cards. He will also 3 bet after the second draw and drop 2. Once I started playing that big I realized that nobody except Greg had a clue how to play this game (Greg was a tiny bit too loose for the game, but at least he really understood the value of hands at showdown and knew how to protect hi s hand correctly, someone obviously read and understands the Theory of Poker!), therefore I had to start opening up my showdown range a bit.

I wish I had a definitive answer, I think a fold was probably good but against the field I am tempted to call BECAUSE of the expected over-call. Its odd to say that!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[randomstumbl]

My quick and dirty hand ranges were an 86 or better for John and presumably a 75 or better for the CO to 3 bet.


I think checkraising a 9 against most pat opponents is probably close to marginal. With a clean 9, I think it's worth it.

Then again, I haven't played much and I'm assuming you're normally getting called down with some very weak badugis here.

[randomstumbl]

[/ QUOTE ]

1) WHY are you raising? Do you want the villain to fold a worse hand? Do you want him to break? You should be raising to shut out John, that will show value in the long run, but not because you are ahead.


[/ QUOTE ]

If I counted right, hero is pretty much indifferent to John calling. If he's still drawing, he has 6 outs of which 2 are dead.

Of course, there's the implied odds to sort out also.