STTF SNG->cash thread

[futuredoc85]

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Chris- i dont understand why you want to raise the TT hand if its to shut down if called. If i raise it (and i do always 4-handed here) its to get my stack in at some point. If there is some sort of history that makes it impossible to put the stacks in profitably or hero has a very tight image id rather just call down than raise/shutdown

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What do you think you beat if villain 3bets you OOP and then likes his hand on this flop? 99, 88 maybe, but those hands are likely to check it down with you anyway.

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any club draw, semi-bluff from overs, any number of poorly played hands (it is 4-handed)? and we dont want them to check it down w/ us which is why id bet the turn if checked to for sure. like i said its perfectly reasonable to not have the image to get it in on the flop, in which case id just keep calling and bet when checked to before id raise anywhere with any intention of folding afterwards.

edit: our UTG raise was also a CO raise here so the OOP 3-bet doesnt really mean as much as it would at a full table

[ChrisV]

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Chris- i dont understand why you want to raise the TT hand if its to shut down if called. If i raise it (and i do always 4-handed here) its to get my stack in at some point. If there is some sort of history that makes it impossible to put the stacks in profitably or hero has a very tight image id rather just call down than raise/shutdown

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What do you think you beat if villain 3bets you OOP and then likes his hand on this flop? 99, 88 maybe, but those hands are likely to check it down with you anyway.

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Now I look at it again, you're prob too shallow to raise and then give up, so I would play it same as OP I think.

Does anyone else find it much harder to factor in stack size when working off a HH compared to when playing?

[ChrisV]

yeah you probably shouldn't listen to me on the TT hand... I try to avoid playing 4 handed and I suck in pots where I've been threebet.

[jgunnip]

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Does anyone else find it much harder to factor in stack size when working off a HH compared to when playing?

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Yeah, it'd be nice if somebody with skillz could add a feature to converted HHs that showed each players stacks on each street.

[cleinen]

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Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $53.70
BTN: $96.90
SB: $108.25
BB: $44.20

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $7</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($14.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $9</font>, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($32.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($32.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $18</font>, Hero folds

Results: $32.50 Pot ($1.55 Rake)
SB mucked and WON $30.95 (+$14.95 NET)

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4-handed i would raise the flop, and if i didnt i would bomb the turn. as played river fold is fine most likely

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Yeah looking at it more i should have def bombed the turn given how drawy the board got.

[jgunnip]

In the cleinen hands,

-I'd fold QJs pf unless I thought CO was defintely coming along or I had some postflop reads on sb.

- On the TT hand I want to bet the turn so ~$21-22. We'd have to call a c/r tho correct?

- AK, I generally cbet this always and stack-a-donk on the turn. If I check it'd be to c/c and then check the turn again to reevaluate I think

[K䲰䮥n]

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Most people fold all but QQ+ and AK to 4bets. In the long run is it more profitable to 4bet with AK or call a 3bet (if Hero has position)?

By 4bettin AK I make the dominated aces fold. The ones which I'd stack on Axx flops.

But is there enough money on the pot already to make 4betting IP profitable in order the 3bettor is 3betting like 8%?

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i noticed the same thing as far as peoples reaction to 4-bets at those levels. on your site, what would you guess the average 3-betting range is for a TAG regular that folds all but QQ+,AK to a 4-bet?

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Thanks to HM I wont have to guess [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

The 200 players that I have the most hands on (ie the regs) average to 4% 3betting overall.

3betting from the blinds against a raise from CO or Button is 12% on the average.


Sample size: 1.123.595 hands [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

EDIT: the usual stats on the average being 25/11/2.6

[jgunnip]

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Jbrochu:

I would still call and CR any turn. I don't see a shoddy flush draw raising small like that, so the only drawing hands I need to worry about are the combo draws (KQcc, KJcc, QJcc). That's only three hands, whereas a lot of villains would make this raise with any ace. If I fail to reraise versus a combo draw it's not the end of the world because the combo draw has good equity against me on the flop and I will still probably win the pot, plus he might well bet again on the turn. However, if villain has an ace, reraising will probably cause him to lay it down, which is a disaster since he has no outs and I will be able to get at least one more bet out of him later in the hand (more if he makes trips or two pair).

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I like just calling the flop raise but I think I'd lead the turn again for a little over 1/2 pot. I might have a problem where I always try to play strong hands in such a way as I'm forced to call an allin/don't put myself in a position where I have to make a tough laydown. Its probably costing me a little bit of EV tho.

[futuredoc85]

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Most people fold all but QQ+ and AK to 4bets. In the long run is it more profitable to 4bet with AK or call a 3bet (if Hero has position)?

By 4bettin AK I make the dominated aces fold. The ones which I'd stack on Axx flops.

But is there enough money on the pot already to make 4betting IP profitable in order the 3bettor is 3betting like 8%?

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i noticed the same thing as far as peoples reaction to 4-bets at those levels. on your site, what would you guess the average 3-betting range is for a TAG regular that folds all but QQ+,AK to a 4-bet?

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Thanks to HM I wont have to guess [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

The 200 players that I have the most hands on (ie the regs) average to 4% 3betting overall.

3betting from the blinds against a raise from CO or Button is 12% on the average.


Sample size: 1.123.595 hands [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

EDIT: the usual stats on the average being 25/11/2.6

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so someone w/ an 11 pfr 3-bets you 12% of the time when you raise in LP, but only gets in preflop w/ QQ+,AK? Good god they are trying oh so hard to give away money.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

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Would any of you be interested in a hand history (cash) exchange of say 100-200 hands? They do this in the NL Cash forums. I signed up last week and got paired w/ a newb so I am not expecting much education from him. I reviewed his HH and am still waiting for him to review mine [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway, I would be willing to pair people up if there is interest. I would try and pair like buy-in players, and try to randomly pair people within same groups.

If the vote looks promising I will reply and ask people to PM me.

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It looks like there is some interest... 4-8 people from what I can tell, so far. Obviously more are welcome. If there are only 4-8 it could be hard to pair by like buy-in, but I will try. We're all here to learn, and I think all of the questions from all buy-ins in this thread are smart questions and show that most, if not all, understand the fundamentals of cash play.

If you're interested PM me with your 2p2 screen name, the buy-in you play, how long you've been playing cash games. I will post the pairings hopefully by Thursday and you should then pm your partner to exchange e-mails so you can exchange hand histories. I think 100-200 hands would be a fair amount, but just ask your partner how many is fair between the two of you. FYI, my review last weekend was of about 100 hands, in Word, and took about an hour or so. Some people use PT in the cash forum, I am not savy enough w/ PT yet.

I will post pairings later this week to give time for addition exposure and hopefully get as many people participating as possible.

All reviews should be completed and returned by Monday 10/29 to be fair and reasonable. This gives the reviewer two weekends to review.

I think it is important that once you receive your reviewed HH back you should review it and ask questions of your reviewer and post any interesting or questionable hands in this thread.

If this HH exchange is successful maybe we'll run them regularly.

Thanks for participating