AQsuited - multiway - deep

[JammyDodga]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t27390)
Button (t2924)
SB (t35438)
BB (t9071)
UTG (t15838)
UTG+1 (t21616)
Hero (t35394)
MP2 (t17601)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2400</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t2400, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2849</font>, SB calls t2449, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t449, CO calls t449.

Flop: (t11446) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...

Any ideas? The presence of the button who was all in made it a bit tricky, as I didn't really have any fold equity...

[hamnegger]

check w intention of check raising . make that raise pretty big too. or you can value bet and i would not be afraid to get it in on this board. i would not definitely not check call.if it gets checked around im betting an ace or queen board but checking the nuts.

[JammyDodga]

Ok, I bet 3200 - I'm not entirely sure why, which is never good when putting money in the middle... I think it was kind of a value bet, hoping to build the pot for if I did hit the flush...

So, Hero bets 3200, everyone folds except SB who re-raises to 8000...

What does hero do now? Do you prefer the flat call or the push? The check-raise in a dry pot is pretty scary I think, its also less likely to be a draw I think because the size of the bet...

An overpair is out, as they would amost certainly have re-raise pre, altough a conservative player could very possible play 1010 for set value here...

Something like 910 suited is perhaps an option, they SB was getting good odds to call pre-flop.

Do we think SB does this witha single pair, A9 or something like that? I'm thinking a combo draw is perhaps an option, A8spades, or 10J/JQ spades...

A set is also a big possibility here, if we are looking at a very strong hand now, which wasn't strong enough to re-raise pre, we could definitely see 99, 88, 22 here.

So whats the play, call, push or fold?

[JammyDodga]

bump, I think this is an interestign hand... just because of the guy all in and the fact it's multi way. also the pre-flop action makes it non-standard i think.

[Tackleberry]

Sorry for saying this, but your flop-bet screams out to have no real plan. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] If you had a made hand you had to protect it against flush/straight-draws. So you telegraph to your opponents that you have no made hand (at best have a good draw) but anyhow feel to be obliged to c-bet here. Said this, the raise of Villain (if he is a thinking player) should not mean that much. He just could have a hand with decent showdown-value against a nearly random hand - shoved from a desperate short-stack.

Anyhow - the pot is about 22k now and you have to call 5k. A fold is clearly out of range. A call finally shows Villain that you may sit on a draw which means that you could face a shove on the turn - which you couldn´t (or shouldn´t) call anymore.

If you shoved instead you would invest your remaining 27k to win a pot of slightly more than 50k (assumed that SB calls) which means that you´re getting the right odds to draw to your nut-flush. Regarding the additional factors like FE (will Villain call you with A9?) as well as your overcards wich may be good as well (at least the combination of FE/OC neutralizes the chance of hitting the flush but losing against Villain´s FH), a shove should be clearly +EV imho.

=&gt; bet-shove the flop.

By the way: does anybody favours a shove preflop? I think it would be my favourite line as

a) there is plenty of dead money in the pot,
b) none of the opponents showed real strength,
c) we surely crush shortys range,
d) we are absolved from making a tough decision on the flop.

Comments?

[JammyDodga]

Hi tackleberry, Thanks for the comments. Your absolutely right, flop bet was rubbish and I had no real plan for the hand. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Pre-flop - I was the initiall raiser, and was far too deep to open push. When the guy went all in, he hadn't raised enough to allow me to re-raise and my only option was to fold or call. Otherwise, I definitely would have.

Flop - I'm not sure I like the push on the flop, as I'm bit deep, and there's one guy all in, so even if I do get them to fold, I still have to beat his hand.

I am interested by your thought that the guys re-raise might have been weak, just because my bet was so dodgy.

Do you not think the small size of the re-raise, and the fact that the pot is pretty dry indicate that this
bet is real strength?

I think this is the crux of the problem. If he has only one pair, then a push is definitely right, because I have a lot of outs AND i have some FE.

If he has two pair or better, I dont have any FE and I've drawing to 9 outs, so it might be better to flat call.

Thoughts?

[4CardStraight]

Since we already have an all in, we have some implicit collusion that is enticing players to check it down.

When we have a strong draw, with many players in the pot and an all in, with implicit collusion, our plan should be to allow the check down to happen until we hit our draw. If someone bets, we can evaluate the strength of our draw.

Here, I think check calling this flop is the good plan.
Preflop a shove isn't too terrible, but I would rather not risk so many chips here with only AQs.

[Tackleberry]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop - I was the initiall raiser, and was far too deep to open push.

[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstood me - I didn´t mean to open-push, your open-raise was perfectly right. I meant to push after three Villains cold-called your raise (I count the shove as a cold-call here). None of them should hold a premium pair here as it would have been nonsens to just call with QQ+, so you definitely shouldn´t be in a bad spot if somebody calls - but the chance that everybody folds here and you win a nice pot against a slightly better than random hand is rather high, I assume.


[ QUOTE ]
Flop [...] there's one guy all in, so even if I do get them to fold, I still have to beat his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Forget about him, your AQs may well be the best hand against him and at least you can´t lose any more chips ...


[ QUOTE ]
Do you not think the small size of the re-raise, and the fact that the pot is pretty dry indicate that this
bet is real strength?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? He made it 2.5x your bet - why should that show "real" strength? Maybe he has something like A9 and wanted to scare you off - assuming that you yourself actually had nothing strong? Or he holds Ts9s - assuming that he makes a value bet as his flush-draw might be good as well? Remember - on this board he can´t have a real monster yet, as even a set was vulnerable to straight- and flush-draws and he should have made a much stronger bet to protect it ...

[Dave D]

Implied collusion doesn't matter here as we're not ITM yet (or close, are we?).

What's the buy in?

By the way, with someone all in I think you generally have MORE fold equity here in that 1. people tend to do implied collusion, even when it doesn't apply like here, so if you bet people assume you have a good hand and 2. they'll get to see your hand, so there's less "I wanna see what he's got" factor.

I like the check with the intention of raising on the flop. As played push. You're probably flipping (or close to it) most of the time as your A and Q outs are probably good. If we call it means we are putting in something like 1/4 of our stack in this hand and considering folding, which is pretty gross. I don't think calling is god awful, but pushing is best I think.

[JammyDodga]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop - I was the initiall raiser, and was far too deep to open push.

[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstood me - I didn´t mean to open-push, your open-raise was perfectly right. I meant to push after three Villains cold-called your raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I couldn't. The guy going all in hadn't raised enough to give me another chance to raise. I only had the option to call the extra few chips.