Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1 Review Thread

[binions]

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Amulet:

Assume you have JTs or A5s. Everyone has 500 in a 5-5 NL game. You are in middle position. UTG limps. UTG+1 limps. You decide to limp.

The player behind you makes it 30 to go. The button calls. The BB calls. The 2 early limpers call. There is 160 in the pot, and it is 25 to call. A call by you closes the action.

What do you do?

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So you type in an example of a hand where pot/implied odds dominate the problem to prove what?


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My question was for Amulet. If you don't understand the significance of the question, I'll explain it after Amulet responds.

As for other factors being important in NLHE aside from SPR, of course that is true. Mehta and Flynn don't disagree. And it is truer the deeper you get where standard preflop bet sizing cannot manipulate SPRs into single digits.

But, stack size/implied odds (ie how deep you are) is probably one of the 2 most importants issue at 50-200xBB stacks (with position as the other). Mehta and Flynn introduce a "new" way to think about stack sizes with SPR. New in the sense it has never been expressly written about. So, they devote half of Vol 1 to it. Big deal. It's crucial information.

[amulet]

binions,
i enjoy your posts.

however, i don't see how your question is relevant to my post. unless you are trying to lead me to the answer you want.

but i will answer it for you: it depends. i think you are trying to get me to say it depends on how deep my opponents are and because everyone has 500 it would be a call. but it depends on a variety of factors. stack size to pot is only one of them. i need a lot more information to tell you what action i would take here.

among the factors:
can i expect to get paid?
are the players rocks who won't pay off the odds i need to play a speculative hand?
do i expect a lot of action post flop? if the opponents are too aggressive it will be difficult to draw for the right price.
are there weak tight players?
what are the raisers standards?
how will my position work vs these opponents?
implied odds? - yes how deep are we and how much is in the pot spr.
i could go on with my list, but i think i have made my point. there are probably about 10 important things i need to consider, most of them as important as stack size and stack to pot ratio. i would prefer not to write about some of them, or share them publicly. however, many of the other posters here could provide a great list.

additionally, my guess is when harrington and robertie publish their book, it will incorporate most of what i would write, if not a lot more. i expect that book to be great, and i expect it to make books like professional nl and most of this thread to be considered superficial. i may be incorrect about harrington, but i doubt it.

[amulet]

i agree.

[amulet]

binions, i don't agree it is one of the 2 most important factors. i think there are a bunch that are all very important.

and i think stack to pot ratio should be at most a chapter in a complete no limit book.

however, again i enjoy your posts and have learned a lot from them.

[threads13]

Given:
Many players, including those on these forums, have said that there doesn't exist a book that gives No-Limit Hold 'Em cash games a good treatment.

The authors have repeatedly said that this book is the first in a series that will do just that. Yet many people have been criticizing this book specifically because it "puts too much emphasis" on a only one concept.

It seems to me that a game as complex as No-Limit Hold 'Em will require many books to do this. The authors have said just that. Yet, everyone keeps complaining that the volume one doesn't contain all the information. The volume 1 part seems to imply that they didn't intend to cover EVERYTHING.

[binions]

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binions,
i enjoy your posts.

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Thanks. :-)

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i will answer it for you: it depends. i think you are trying to get me to say it depends on how deep my opponents are and because everyone has 500 it would be a call. but it depends on a variety of factors. stack size to pot is only one of them. i need a lot more information to tell you what action i would take here.

among the factors:
can i expect to get paid?
are the players rocks who won't pay off the odds i need to play a speculative hand?
do i expect a lot of action post flop? if the opponents are too aggressive it will be difficult to draw for the right price.
are there weak tight players?
what are the raisers standards?
how will my position work vs these opponents?
implied odds? - yes how deep are we and how much is in the pot spr.


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Good answer. Glad to hear you would consider folding.

In my experience, 99% of live players make the call with JTs or A5s if they close the action in a multiway raised pot, as long as most of the players have stacks of at least 80xBB or more.

The reason they always give? Implied odds. (Sometimes they also say good relative position, but it's amazing how often people don't consider relative position).

But in the situation I described above, there will be 185 in the pot when you call, and everyone will have 470. So, everyone's SPR will be 2.6:1.

When JTs and A5s make great hands, it's usually by the turn or river. They flop 2 pair or better made hands about 3% of the time. The flop huge combination draws far less than 3%.

Most of the time, they miss the flop. Sometimes, they flop a weak one pair hand. Sometimes, they flop 8 or 9 out draws.

Assuming there is any action on the flop and you have an 8-9 out draw, most players will call or go all in. After all, they didn't play the drawing hand to fold once the flop gives them a draw.

The problem is that 8-9 out draws seem profitable multiway in raised pots at 100xBB stacks if you get action on the flop. This is mostly illusion.

If you have 33-35% equity in with an SPR of 2.6:1, your implied odds against 1 foe (who flopped a set or 2 pair or an overpair) are 3.6:2.6 when you are at best a 2:1 dog.

YOU ACTUALLY NEED 2 PEOPLE TO GO ALL IN WITH YOU ON THE FLOP TO HAVE ANY CHANCE AT AN OVERLAY WHEN YOU FLOP A 8-9 OUT DRAW.

This is an example of how you can use SPR to avoid trap situations that can cost you your stack. I never used to fold drawing hands in multiway raised pots with good relative position before I started thinking about SPR. Now, unless stacks are DEEP, I routinely fold in this situation based upon my reading of PNL.

Bottom line, while you are correct that there are many things to think about in NLHE, it appears to me you are selling SPR short. Its implications are vast, and sometimes lead to conclusions that seem counterintuitive.

[amulet]

Good answer. Glad to hear you would consider folding.
I OFTEN FOLD HERE, NOT SO MUCH BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE STACKS BE BECAUSE I KNOW I AM BEHIND AND UNLIKELY TO GET PAID ENOUGH TO MAKE IT HAVE A POSITIVE EV.

In my experience, 99% of live players make the call with JTs or A5s if they close the action in a multiway raised pot, as long as most of the players have stacks of at least 80xBB or more.

The reason they always give? Implied odds. (Sometimes they also say good relative position, but it's amazing how often people don't consider relative position).

But in the situation I described above, there will be 185 in the pot when you call, and everyone will have 470. So, everyone's SPR will be 2.6:1.

When JTs and A5s make great hands, it's usually by the turn or river. They flop 2 pair or better made hands about 3% of the time. The flop huge combination draws far less than 3%.
YES, I THINK OF 2 PAIR OR BETTER AS 1 IN 28, BUT IT IS THE SAME THING.

Most of the time, they miss the flop. Sometimes, they flop a weak one pair hand. Sometimes, they flop 8 or 9 out draws.

Assuming there is any action on the flop and you have an 8-9 out draw, most players will call or go all in. After all, they didn't play the drawing hand to fold once the flop gives them a draw.
CAN'T GO ALL IN AS A 2 TO 1 DOG, AND IF THE OPPONENT IS WILLING TO PLAY FOR ALL HIS CHIPS HE MAY HAVE A SET AND THEN YOU ARE A LITTLE MORE OF A DOG. IN LIMIT POST FLOP YOU WILL OFTEN BE GETTING THE CORRECT PRICE AND VS ONE OPPONENT YOUR ACE MIGHT BE GOOD - BUT THAT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GAME.

The problem is that 8-9 out draws seem profitable multiway in raised pots at 100xBB stacks if you get action on the flop. This is mostly illusion.
I AGREE

If you have 33-35% equity in with an SPR of 2.6:1, your implied odds against 1 foe (who flopped a set or 2 pair or an overpair) are 3.6:2.6 when you are at best a 2:1 dog.

YOU ACTUALLY NEED 2 PEOPLE TO GO ALL IN WITH YOU ON THE FLOP TO HAVE ANY CHANCE AT AN OVERLAY WHEN YOU FLOP A 8-9 OUT DRAW.

This is an example of how you can use SPR to avoid trap situations that can cost you your stack. I never used to fold drawing hands in multiway raised pots with good relative position before I started thinking about SPR. Now, unless stacks are DEEP, I routinely fold in this situation based upon my reading of PNL.
THEN PNL HELPED YOU. I USALLY FOLD HERE AND HAVE FOR YEARS. BUT AS USUSAL ...IT DEPENDS....

Bottom line, while you are correct that there are many things to think about in NLHE, it appears to me you are selling SPR short. Its implications are vast, and sometimes lead to conclusions that seem counterintuitive.
I DIDN'T SEE THIS DECISION AS COUNTERINTUITIVE BEFORE PNL SO IT IS HARD FOR ME TO COMMENT.

I THINK THE AUTHORS COVERED POSITION WELL. I THINK THEY SPEND WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON STACK TO POT RATIO.

HAVE A GOOD DAY.

[jeffnc]

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there is no question that stack to pot ratio is important. however, it is one of MANY things that are very important during the play of a hand.

the book spends way to much time focusing on SPR.

i suggest that players use the concept, but not reley on it nearly as much as this book recommends.

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I disagree that the book spends too much time on SPR, because
1) it's new stuff, never been talked about like that before. If we were talking about something like pot odds, I'd agree
2) it's only a part of the overall picture, and I don't think the book says you should rely on it so strongly. This is only half of the full "book", maybe even one third. The author's probably think the first volume is only 1/8 of the story, but you can't keep writing forever.

[jeffnc]

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and i think stack to pot ratio should be at most a chapter in a complete no limit book.

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In future NL books, that's exactly what will probably happen. For example, all of Harrington's Vol 2 is probably a chapter in new NL tourney books. But at the time "M" was new (regardless of the fact that people were saying good tournament players were already playing that way) so it merited full discussion.

[smbruin22]

just finished this book. sort of first glace, quick read as you'll see from some of my questions.

i commend the authors on the basic premise. formalizing something that i think we'd all wrestled with. i've always wondered what initial stack size i can get all-in on unco-ordinated board.....

i don't have the book in front of me... but what page is the section on continuation bets? i don't remember too much...

also, why bet the pot? why not half or two-thirds the pot? i don't remember that expanded on too much..... seems like there's so much trapping these days, although usually your opponent doesn't have a set or two pair.

lastly, if we have pocket aces or AK with ace on flop, if we bet the pot and our only opponent folds, is that a bad outcome?? specifically thinking if opponent has AQ, AJ, AT in pocket. surely then we might want to bet less. in fact, i'm thinking smaller bets have huge advantages, but of course the whole idea of the book is about not getting a significant amount in without commitment, and i do agree 100% that it's very important.

thanks in advance for any responses!