3/6 River Decision

[Jeff76]

Disclaimer: I suck at rivers in pretty much every game there is.

Pretty sure this is standard up to the river, including my raise, but I had to pause once he 3bet the river. Can I re-raise here for value?

No real reads on vaillain, BTW- I've only played a few hands so far and the table seems fairly tight in general. I only have a few hands at 3/6, and the play does seem to be a lot better than 2/4 (as well as more fun).

Also, while we're here- whatever villain has, shouldn't he be betting 5th?

7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.58 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.92 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.46 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (3.46 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (5.46 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___????
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises

[chucky]

Call. you are getting 8.5 to 1. Full house is possible, but villian needs less than FH 13% of the time to make the river call ev+. Reraising again seems inappropriate since you first raise got reraised.

[Jeff76]

Just to be clear- I am never folding. My question was between calling and re-raising [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
Reraising again seems inappropriate since you first raise got reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]The reason I considered it is that my hand is a lot stronger than it looks and he is probably 3betting me if he has a flush.

[tuds38]

The check behind on 5th is weird. Makes it seem like he still just had J's at that point, but he should be betting that board almost every time, esp if he has another diamond down.

Your board doesn't really look dangerous on the river so he's prob reraising with any straight or better, but the check on 5th is a little too odd for me. The only dead card on his board is another Q so I say just play it safe and call.

[MrBlueNose]

First of all - I don't like the check on 5th. Allows villain to take control of the pot, take a free card if necessary. I'm betting here.

As for 7th. I'm reraising. Villains hand seems face up to me. He has jacks on 3rd through 5th. He made jacks up on 6th, and it's more likely he ran into a flush or straight than a boat on 7th.

Now...look at your board. AK6T, with two spades. I could never put you on a flush based from that, so I can't see villain fearing the flush at all. More likely he expects you to be reraising with Aces up here(or a rivered broadway I guess), and is 3-betting his rivered flush or straight. I think we have the best hand here about 70% of the time.

If somehow he was slowplaying on 5th, then thats life [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all - I don't like the check on 5th. Allows villain to take control of the pot, take a free card if necessary. I'm betting here.

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm- it seems to me that we are either slightly ahead or way behind on 5th. I can't put him on any hand that is correct to fold on 5th (assuming he had a legitimate hand on 3rd), so when I'm ahead I'm only winning a fraction of a bet. However, he might easily re-raise me when I'm behind (and might even be drawing to runner, runner), which costs me an additional full bet I really don't want to pay.

At the time I was expecting a bet to go in (and I think one should have), but I really didn't want two bets to go in.

Is my logic flawed here? How important is it to retain control of the pot? Also, I can bet and still lose control, even if I have the best hand- he can always raise me.

[ QUOTE ]

Now...look at your board. AK6T, with two spades. I could never put you on a flush based from that, so I can't see villain fearing the flush at all. More likely he expects you to be reraising with Aces up here(or a rivered broadway I guess), and is 3-betting his rivered flush or straight. I think we have the best hand here about 70% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]This was my thinking at the time as well. Basically whether or not I should bet here comes down to what my chances are of being ahead- if I am ahead 50% of the time, it's a clear bet (since he can't raise again if he filled up). Unfortunatly, I still don't have a good enough feel for this game to know if, given this action, he is more likely to have a full house or a straight or flush. The 5th street check behind really confused me, because if he HAD bet there I think this would be an easier raise. I actually sat there for quite a while trying to make a decision.

[docholiday420]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all - I don't like the check on 5th. Allows villain to take control of the pot, take a free card if necessary. I'm betting here.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely with that. You should have bet fifth to see if that diamond helped or not. Besides you still have aces with about a 30% chance to make 2 pair. I would have made the bet to see what happened, if he raised me I would have folded and saved possible three extra BB. Four street is an important street to get a read, and on that he got a second diamond. Him checking on fifth is not a bad play on his part if he was first to act. I think he made a flush, and thought checking on fifth and hopefully raise on sixth, but either way it's still two bets. He might have not bet because he feared the bet would scare you out, which is not that bad of a play.

The real mistake is giving him a free card on fifth, with three diamonds. Maybe he doesn't have a flush but four parts and you gave his fifth for free, maybe he is drawing, then you should bet and get some value in the pot so that if he missed you get paid off.

If someone is chasing, and big mistake is thinking to not bet because your bet won't get him out. If I see someone drawing I def, want to get money in the pot. The odds are he won't catch so why not put money in a situation when odds are in your favor, especially since you won't get money from him on seventh unless he makes his hand. Getting someone out is one reason to bet--two other ones is to get information from them and to get value in a pot your ahead on. By checking on fifth, you put yourself in a situation harder to read his hand.


Then he bets into you on sixth, as far as action goes for the river i would have capped with the ace hi straight because I would have read him for a flush too.

Those who think checking was a good play on fifth your welcome to play at foxwoods anytime and give me free cards when I have three to a flush on board. That play can be disasterous. If you move was to checkraise here's a tip on checkraising. The checkraise is a strong move heads up, but if you have the title of aggressor in the hand, which you did with the last raise on third and bet on fourth, and then you check the next on fifth odds are he will check also, at least he should. If you want to check raise then don't bet the small bet on fourth, put some doubt in his head then to that you have two aces, after checkig on fifth he's more apt to bet on fifth than if you bet out on fourth. You're sacrificng the 3 bucks on fourth to extract 12 from him on fifth. Chip Reese makes a very good point of this in supersystem, which is usually how I play, give him some confidence on fourth, and set the trap when the bets are higher. This is for overall how to get the checkraise. You have to give the guy confidence to bet. So again it can be played to ways

Bet 4th +3, check 5th he'll check=3
Check 4th, check 5th he bets 6 raise 6=12

I hope you see the difference in this play, if there is any hand to give a free card it is fourth, not fifth. One bet on fifth equals 2 on fourth and a raise on fifth is four fourth bets.

[chucky]

Its reasonable to believe that villian has flush, but I think it is unlikely that he started three to the flush because he does not raise 4th or bet 5th. Therefore it is also reasonable to read his raise on 3rd as his belief that you did not have aces, and on 6th street as jacks up. The problem hero is faced with is that villian will 3 bet with both lower flush and jacks full. You need villian to have lower flush about 21% of the time to break even on capping.

[RandomUser]

Villain might also 3-bet with a straight against your board.

Normally, I would cap this, but the fact that he checked on 5th leads me to believe he is tighter than most players.

I think that around 30% of the time he has a full house here, the other 70% he has a straight or flush. With no other history to go on, I guess I would probably cap this and take note of what he has for future reference.

He may have hit the Ad or Kd on the river and think he has the higher flush.