Is player all-in?

Jauron · #1 10-14-2007, 03:25 AM

Friend of mine was telling a story tonight I've never heard and I'm pretty sure he got a raw deal.

$1/$2 NL

EP Goes AI for $10, 2 callers behind, friend raises to $30 and it gets back around to one of the callers who asks my friend how much he has left. My friend stacks his chips out front (not near his raise but in clear view) and shows he has $58 left. He then turns his heads and talks to someone who came up to him off the table. When he turns around his chips in are in the middle of the side pot, there is a flop and he asks what happened. It appears that smooth caller #1 set him in after asking, caller #2 folds and without asking my friend dealers scoops his chips and deals the flop (at which point he turns around). Friend objects and asks for the floor saying I hadn't acted yet and was only showing him how many chips I have.

Floor comes over and while there is discussion my friend says whatever if you say it's a call fine or I can have folded but I didn't agree to any action and would have folded to his raise. Floor says he folded and orders the $58 to be taken out of the side pot and to resume the hand.

All is well AND 3 hands later someone on the table not in the hand raises a fuss and asks the dealer if he thought he had called. Dealer says yes and the floor gets called back. Different floor guy decides my friend owes other guy $58 and orders him to pay it despite the 3 hand being dealt. Friend objects again and they threaten to throw him out.

Is there any possible justification for allowing a second decision 3 hands later in which my friend has no chance to win the pot since his hand is mucked?

Rottersod · #2 10-14-2007, 04:07 AM

There is no justification and your friend should have cashed out and left since they were trying to rob him.

chucky · #3 10-14-2007, 06:39 AM

No justification. This is one reason why I dislike NL cash games so much, NL makes it more valuable to angleshoot.

youtalkfunny · #4 10-14-2007, 06:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
EP Goes AI for $10, 2 callers behind, friend raises to $30 and it gets back around to one of the callers who asks my friend how much he has left. My friend stacks his chips out front (not near his raise but in clear view) and shows he has $58 left. He then turns his heads and talks to someone who came up to him off the table. When he turns around his chips in are in the middle of the side pot, there is a flop and he asks what happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your friend has a responsibility to pay attention to the game. When the dealer:

--announces opponent's raise;
--pulls in all chips;
--taps the table;
--spreads a flop...

...and your friend has all his chips out in front of his cards, and he does nothing to stop ANY of this, how can people think anything but "he's all-in"?

The answer to your question is no, they should not be reversing decisions three hands later.

But let's drop all this conspiracy nonsense. Your friend could have avoided the whole mess with a MINIMUM of consideration on his part, so I can't feel too bad for him.

Gonso · #5 10-14-2007, 07:10 AM

The first part and the decision is kind of situation-dependent, and yes the guy should have been paying attention. If he never really called though, eh, very murky. If his chips were forward enough to have appeared to be in play then that's probably the root of the problem.

With that out of the way, 3 hands down the road the other player's opinion is irrelevant as is the dealer's, who said his bit to the floor already - of course the dealer thought the player had called.

NickMPK · #6 10-14-2007, 09:27 AM

Your friend raises an all-in player, but wouldn't call $58 preflop with $140 in the pot? What the hell did he have?

youtalkfunny · #7 10-14-2007, 02:05 PM

bav · #8 10-14-2007, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Different floor guy decides my friend owes other guy $58 and orders him to pay it despite the 3 hand being dealt. Friend objects again and they threaten to throw him out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get the casino manager, get the gaming commission, get the local papers. The casino doesn't get to steal your money just 'cause they want to. Your friend asked for a ruling from the original floor person and got it...he got his $58 back and gave up his cards. Now the several hands later new floor dude wants to take his $58 and not give him the opportunity to even play his cards? Dream on. You can throw me out, but I won't let you steal from me.

RR · #9 10-14-2007, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Different floor guy decides my friend owes other guy $58 and orders him to pay it despite the 3 hand being dealt. Friend objects again and they threaten to throw him out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get the casino manager, get the gaming commission, get the local papers. The casino doesn't get to steal your money just 'cause they want to. Your friend asked for a ruling from the original floor person and got it...he got his $58 back and gave up his cards. Now the several hands later new floor dude wants to take his $58 and not give him the opportunity to even play his cards? Dream on. You can throw me out, but I won't let you steal from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of a hijack this is why the people that say the casino can take chips form someone that refuses to pay an all-in wager are just wrong. I think everyone would agree this guy would be right to pick up his chips and leave. We can certainly see the difference between this guy and one that refuses to pay an all-in, but if the casino has the power to take the chips from a guy that says "all-in" and doesn't put them in then it would have the power to take them from this guy.

Jauron · #10 10-14-2007, 04:53 PM

He has A2 was just trying to force it heads up with a weak play that backfired. No question the play was bad, but what happened afterwards to me was flat out wrong.

Even if the original floor had said you called for whatever reason, ok. But to change the decision 3 hands later blows my mind giving him no chance to win the hand.