JJ against KK on the flop

Hydrant · #1 09-20-2006, 06:38 PM

Just checking if this is a standard play, did not have any reads since it was the first orbit at that table.

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
7 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Intended to fold to a cap or river bet. Is that OK?

River: (9.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

MandM_WSU · #2 09-20-2006, 06:42 PM

I'd value bet the river since he didn't cap the turn.

CaptDrew · #3 09-20-2006, 06:56 PM

Hydrant - this response is prefaced with the fact that I'm probably not that good, but here's my thoughts. BadGuy is in the BB so he is calling with a - w i d e - range of hands. Most likely he's suited and somewhat connected. He might have AT or AQ suited at best. On the flop he's getting 5-1 on his call to a flush draw and if he is indeed connected to the flop in a backdoor straight kind of way, he's got the odds.

His turn raise feels very much like a semi-bluff to a strong draw, especially when he doesn't pop a cap back at your face.

When he checks the river, you have to value bet. I've heard it billion times. At this level - VALUE BET, VALUE BET, VALUE BET. He's paying you if he has AT, QT, T9, etc... Otherwise he's folding.

But, alas, I'm probably way wrong here. He probably had KK and played it all f'd up like just to confuse me.

Play well.

-CaptDrew

alul · #4 09-20-2006, 07:15 PM

Just call the turn raise and the river bet (bet the river if checked). There is no sense to 3-bet with intension to fold to the cap. You spend the same money calling down.

Hielko · #5 09-20-2006, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just call the turn raise and the river bet (bet the river if checked). There is no sense to 3-bet with intension to fold to the cap. You spend the same money calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't the complete truth. When you 3-bet/fold on the turn you could get a better hand (QQ and against some players even AA) to fold. Sometimes it will get more money from a draw that isn't going to bluff the river when it misses, but that is going to call a turn 3-bet. It also allows you to valuebet the river when you improve. The downside is that you sometimes have to fold on the turn, so you can't hit your 2-outer. When you just call on the turn, you have the option to raise on the river when you improve and no never have to fold your 2-outer and you can never be bluffed.

calc · #6 09-20-2006, 09:48 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to see a weak king over 50% of the time here.

Once I 3 bet the turn and got called I check the river behind. not capping the turn and checking the river could well be someone who is afraid of AK or KQ, but still has a king nonetheless.

Do you really think someone who check calls the flop and check raises the turn and calls a reraise does not hold a king most of the time?

I don't think the river is a good value bet here.

_TKO_ · #7 09-20-2006, 09:51 PM

I would just call down from the turn (betting the river if checked to), since my turn AF is way too high, and I'm learning that getting to showdown is quite valuable.

tyler_cracker · #8 09-20-2006, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That isn't the complete truth. When you 3-bet/fold on the turn you could get a better hand (QQ and against some players even AA) to fold. Sometimes it will get more money from a draw that isn't going to bluff the river when it misses, but that is going to call a turn 3-bet. It also allows you to valuebet the river when you improve. The downside is that you sometimes have to fold on the turn, so you can't hit your 2-outer. When you just call on the turn, you have the option to raise on the river when you improve and no never have to fold your 2-outer and you can never be bluffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

the italicized part doesn't really make sense to me (especially since we're in position in this particular hand), but otherwise i think this is good analysis.

Bill C · #9 09-20-2006, 10:59 PM

Villain shows you no raise PF, C/C the flop and no cap on the turn. Maybe he's just horrible and has you beat, but when he checks the river I'd bet and fold to a raise.

bill

Dagger78 · #10 09-20-2006, 11:43 PM

Just call down from the turn CR. If you're planning on checking behind the river anyway, but folding to a cap, you're missing that 5% of the time you're a luckbox and river a jack.

Turn 3 bet is spewing, he's probably going to fold most hands you beat(except Flush draws), and punish you with a K. You can just call down for the same price.