Police kill Polish man @ Vancouver Airport

[rothko]

sigh

[R*R]

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The policing expert in the Times Colonist article is this guy. He gets paid to testify in court. He says this in the article:

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Lyman was also concerned about the way one of the officers repeatedly struck what appeared to be a baton on the floor near the prostrate Dziekanski.

"Whether it hit him, I don't know. But I am concerned that he may have been struck with no justification."

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That's a neat bit of doublespeak to smear the cops. It doesn't take an expert to know how collapsible batons work. The cop in the video slamming his baton on the floor is closing it. That's the only way to close one and anyone who's held one should know that.

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the times communist is such a hippie newspaper. if they weren't protesting about this it would be about something else.

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So what paper do you read? Something unhippy? But yeah your right only hippies and left wing bleeding hearts are pissed off about all of this.
Not real men like you!

[2/325Falcon]

Phil,

You didn't make any relevant points. Did you see the Polish guy getting shocked 18 times? The study shows there's a mechanism that can cause damage, but involves repeated shocks that didn't happen in this case.

The thing that tilts me about these threads isn't people complaining about excessive use of force by the cops. It's that people always bitch and moan about the cops using tasers, but no one ever comes up with a specific course of action the cops should have taken that won't hurt the suspect just as badly.

So, let's hear it Loungers. Tell me exactly what the cops should have done with this guy and be specific. If you think the cops should just grab this guy, what will you say if something like this happens?

[Blarg]

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What about countries without armed officers to shoot him? That Polish guy would have taken over the airport.

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Beautiful dark sarcasm. Finally something to make me chuckle.

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I had to crack a grin here too.

[Blarg]

Everybody already has come up with the alternate suggestion, and it has been repeated more than once. It's exactly the suggestion any reasonable person would expect to come up, no matter what side you're on -- that the cops do a manual take-down if necessary. Same thing they've been doing for thousands of years with death only as a very rare result. So your saying nobody is coming up with an alternative is transparently false.

[2/325Falcon]

The same people complaining about the cops killing this guy with the taser would be saying exactly the same things if the cops cracked this guy's skull during a manual takedown. You've set up a no-win situation where no matter what happens your sympathy for the victim overrides the ability to think critically about the situation.

Whenever the cops use force against someone there is the possibility of death. To somehow say it's safer for the cops, the victim, or the by-standers if 4 cops wrestle this guy to the ground is ludicrous. If someone has some sort of study or statistics showing that it's safer to slam this guy to the ground I'd be interested in seeing it.

[katyseagull]

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... people always bitch and moan about the cops using tasers, but no one ever comes up with a specific course of action the cops should have taken that won't hurt the suspect just as badly.

So, let's hear it Loungers. Tell me exactly what the cops should have done with this guy and be specific.

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I'm going to go with nets. I think we should use nets on unruly individuals who are throwing chairs and little tantrums in airports. If not nets then maybe a sweet talking little old lady (employee?) offering a patient smile and piece of coffee cake as she tries to calm the individual down and get to the heart of the matter. So yeah nets or coffee cake, whichever is handiest, when confronting unarmed airport passengers. I think weapons aren't really called for in these situations.

[2/325Falcon]

[Wires]

"The same people complaining about the cops killing this guy with the taser would be saying exactly the same things if the cops cracked this guy's skull during a manual takedown."

If five police officers cannot figure out how to take down an unarmed man without cracking open his skull then there is a problem.

These officers had time on their side with this guy. He had no weapon and had not made any aggressive gestures towards anything animated. You can charge him afterwards with any property destruction. If airport management was on the ball their own security would have identified the situation and brought in an interpreter to diffuse the situation before it escalated as it did. He and his mother spent hours trying to connect before this went down and no one was able to put the pieces together and connect these two people. He didn't speak English and the mother's ability to do so was limited so they were ignored.

One of the criticisms of the taser use is that the man was relatively calm when they decided to zap him. The police had the option to 1) right the airport's wrong and bring in an interpreter to figure out what the hell was going on or 2) if there are immediate safety concerns to this man or other individuals proceed with a manual take down. He was calm enough that they should have, with their training, been able to pull off this move.

Should he somehow crack his skull open during the takedown the video would show whether it was due to improper procedure by police or whether the man was simply out of control and the injury was caused by his own actions/non-compliance.

I spent 5 years working in adolescent mental health - usually in a residential setting. There were often large, aggressive teenage boys who needed to be physically restrained when they posed a risk to themselves or the other residents. Two of us would hold the teen while the other staff dealt with the other kids. We were trained so we were able to do these restraints effectively and safely. No one was ever hurt.

Certainly a grown man >>>>stronger>>>> then a teenage boy but there is no reason 5 trained officers should not have been able to contain this man without resorting to the taser.

[2/325Falcon]

Wires,

Handling mentally ill teenage boys in a controlled setting is much different than handling random dudes in an airport. You knew the medical history of the kids you were around. You didn't need to worry about what kind of drugs the kids might be on or if the kid gets cut during the struggle are you being exposed to HIV or other blood-borne diseases. The cops need to make split second decisions with very limited information. If the guy in the video gets by the cops and starts running around the airport throwing stuff at by-standers the cops will be crucified for it.

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Should he somehow crack his skull open during the takedown the video would show whether it was due to improper procedure by police or whether the man was simply out of control and the injury was caused by his own actions/non-compliance.

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I very much doubt that if this guy got hurt during a takedown people in this thread would be posting "justifiable imo" wrt the cops. It could be true, but my guess is we'd just get more f tha police posts. If you want to post the takedown techniques you used on the kids go ahead.