Did I make a bad shove?

hein29 · #1 08-09-2007, 06:51 AM

Took my chances in a $100+$9, quite unusual for my usual stakes:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t6010)
SB (t6725)
BB (t4075)
UTG (t4078)
UTG+1 (t3355)
Hero (t3150)
MP2 (t2720)
CO (t3335)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A

, Q

.
UTG raises to t450</font>, 1 fold</font>, Hero raises to t3150</font>, 5 folds</font>, UTG calls t2700.

Mr.WeakTight · #2 08-09-2007, 07:22 AM

what was your read on UTG? was he tight? loose? passive aggressive? had they raised before? Unless you have some reason to think that they are open raising from early position with something less than AQ, such as AJ or AT or pairs lower than 99s, it was a bad push because you are behind that range.

it was also a bad push b/c you have more than 10x the blinds and antes so you don't need to be in push fold mode. However, if you did have a read then it was OK b/c re-raising to 3x their raise committs 1/3 of your stack and then when you continuation bet you have to push. So if a re-raise makes sense, then it does need to be all-in.

I would call and hope for a good flop. this also illustrates why it is a bad push- because you are giving up your positional advantage that you will have over the raiser on later streets.

levAA · #3 08-09-2007, 08:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did I make a bad shove?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think yes.

This looks like a fear of postflop play. Your hand is too weak for a reraise. against an UTG raise of the normal tight villain you need something like QQ+,AKs.
with this push you find yourself most often against AK or a high PP but only the minority of the time as a small underdog in a race.
your hand is too strong to fold, so i'd just call it and play poker - remember you have position on him.

hein29 · #4 08-09-2007, 08:53 AM

Thanks,

read on UTG was tight, but looser than the remaining players on a very tight table.

What would a "good flop" mean in this case? I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than TP + flush draw or better. I would maybe think a raise to 1000-1200 would be better, and fold to a re-reraise PF?

levAA · #5 08-09-2007, 09:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks,

read on UTG was tight, but looser than the remaining players on a very tight table.

What would a "good flop" mean in this case? I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than TP + flush draw or better. I would maybe think a raise to 1000-1200 would be better, and fold to a re-reraise PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

a good flop is a Q, be carefull with an A, some hearts are obv. good, but also if you don't hit the flop and there are some low cards it can be good for you, as you might be able to steal this one with position - but always be aware that you can be up against a big PP.

I don't like your reraise idea here very much. this is something you usually do when you are out of position. here you have position on all the remaining streets. this is a huge advantage for you - so use it - just call.

kurtkatt · #6 08-09-2007, 09:45 AM

i think its fine.

calling is more or less horrible. If we have utg on such a tight range that we dont wanna reraise pf. Calling, looking for a queen, will have us folding flop a looot and be stacked a lot when we hit anyways. so either fold or reraise pf would be my options. Im not sure push/reraising is better than folding tho? One other thing is that a reraise to 15-1600 is a lot more intimidating from an unknown than a slight overpush

levAA · #7 08-09-2007, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
calling is more or less horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - anyone here affraid of some good postflop play?
i think you can win the pot postflop also if no Q hits on the flop as it happens with most of the pots. i agree that folding is an option here, but repopping with AQs against an UTG raise will cost you a lot of money - specially in these higher buy-ins where most people know what they are doing.

kurtkatt · #8 08-09-2007, 10:44 AM

lol

u keep outplaying ppl with ur 20xbb and ill continue to make my decisions pf at that stacksize.

further our read is that we have a nitty table where this player is one of those that is possibly adjusting--- looser range etc. im folding AQ in these situations a lot, might be a leak, but id be surprised if trying to outplay his strong range postflop is the answer...

black666 · #9 08-09-2007, 11:14 AM

Shoving 21xBB to win a standard 3xBB raise is bad. It's even worse because there are still 5 people left to act before it gets back to UTG. Just call and play pot in position.

oe39 · #10 08-09-2007, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks,

read on UTG was tight, but looser than the remaining players on a very tight table.

What would a "good flop" mean in this case? I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than TP + flush draw or better. I would maybe think a raise to 1000-1200 would be better, and fold to a re-reraise PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

you want to get a third of your stack or more in the pot and then fold?