Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands

[RobA]

These are two similar spots. I got both wrong. I figured maybe i could sort some concepts out by posting them together, see if you guys could tease out what makes one hand's play different from the other.

Live 20/40 in AC. Saturday afternoon.

Hand 1:
Folded to me on Button, I raise with KT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book). BB folds. I call.

Flop 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

He bets, I call.

Turn 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets. What's my best plan from here for turn/river, if I hit river, and if I miss river.


Hand 2:

Folded to me in CO, I raise with AT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Button (guy from previous hand is walking. this is his friend. they've been talking a lot of poker talk. this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to, but has only shown me AA, and KJs in the 45 minutes he's been at the table.) 3-bets. Blinds fold, I call.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Best plan from here for turn/river, and please include what to do for rivers that hit and miss.


Thank you for you comments.

[n.s.]

I'll probably get this wrong as well, but here goes...

hand 1: I think I'd raise the flop and either take a free turn card (folding the river u/i), or bet the turn depending on what card came and how my opponent reacted to the raise (I think I'd bet this particular turn card).

As played, I'd just call the turn. Fold the river if we miss, call a T, raise a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K.

hand 2: I'd check-raise this flop and lead most turns. You've got a ton of outs to a strong hand, and you'll put a lot of pressure on a small PP.

As played, I think I might c/r the turn if you think this guy can lay down a hand. I would also consider calling the river u/i if he is pretty aggro.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book)

[/ QUOTE ]

Then he seems like the kind you can bluff. Find a raise. If you didn't do it on the flop, you can certainly do it on the turn. If you raised and are called on the turn, you can value bet a K, T or [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but he's probably committed to a showdown, so I wouldn't bluff if you missed.

Hand 2:

You have a hand you can give some decent action to. Gutshot+over+nut flush draw? Just check-raise the flop and he may well lay down an underpair right away.

Plan for bricked river? Well, your way you have no idea where you're at. I guess look him up, but I feel queasy doing that against anyone but maniacs. But if you put in some aggressive action and get called, your river miss decision should be a piece of cake.

Garland

[leo doc]

Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.

Hand 2: Is there anyone here that would consider 4-betting PF against this particular villian? ("this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to")

[scoresman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it wrong to want to four-bet both of these preflop? Anyway that's neither here nor there.

I don't know if its right, but I'd raise both of these flops and probably keep firing most turns.

[NinaWilliams]

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.

Anyway, in hand #1 raising the flop is best because a lot of his range missed that flop and you standard a good chance of winning the pot against a better K or an A. Fire the turn UI if he calls the flop. The value you get from winning the pot with the worst hand far outweighs the fraction of a bet you lose when he calls or raises.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was also thinking that hand 1 was a clearer 4bet than hand 2.

[Captain R]

I'm not aggro enough to 4-bet in these spots preflop, but Hand 1 is definitely better IMO. Hand 2 you're out of position, and button has to be re-stealing to have a weak hand. Hand 1, villain may be just 3-betting you light to keep you from picking on his blinds so much.

Hand 1: I agree you definitely have to raise somewhere. Raising flop is cheaper, but looks weaker. I can't imagine many people continuing with no pair if you pop the turn, but your bluff will cost you more. If some kind of big card hits the turn (A/Q/J), I think a turn raise will be more effective.

Hand 2: You could play it any which way depending on opponent. If your opponent is suspicious, I don't think you're going to get any pair to fold unless it gets scarier on the turn (A/J/T vs. his 77/88/99) in which case you're going to be ahead anyway. The board is super-draw heavy.

[leo doc]

You're right in the 4-bet in hand 1 in that you'd like to have the fold equity in hand 1 by 4 betting. Reason I said hand 2 was because of OP's read on villian.