It touched the muck - it's DEAD!

[juanez]

Two guys are heads up at the showdown. One guy is known to be a Floor Supervisor (FS) at another poker room in town and the other is an average Joe (Joe).

FS turns his cards over after betting and getting called by Joe on the river. Joe tosses his cards face up toward the board, like many novice players do. Joe didn't spike them or fire them at the dealer or anything out of control, he just "tossed" them toward the middle of the table. One of his cards lands face up - an Ace which was top pair and made him the winner. The other card catches an edge, cartwheels and lands "on" the muck face down. Actually, only one corner of his other card landed on the muck face down.

I get called over to resolve the "his hand is dead" argument from the FS.

The dealer tells me that Joe called the last bet and she explained what happened. I declare his hand live, he wins and I warn him to be careful with his cards in the future.

FS freaks out yelling "That's wrong...that's a bad call....his card TOUCHED the muck....it's a dead hand" over and over. All this over a $30 pot (maybe).

I attempt to explain my ruling to him, but he is beligerant and just repeats his "It touched the muck" rant. I just tell him "It's in Rule 10 (Colorado poker rules)...touching the muck doesn't magically kill a hand" and walk away when he continues to berate me, not wanting to make a big scene with my contemporary at the table and expecting him to follow me to discuss it. He never does. Instead he pins my manager down later and my manager agrees that my call was fine.

Joe appologized repeatedly for causing the turmoil by tossing his cards in such a way. He got a comp to the buffet.

I won't be playing in FS's room again simply due to his unprofessional conduct, but I'm interested on other floor/dealers opinions on this ruling anyway.

[bav]

You don't want a player's opinion? Want it or not, I think ya done fine.

[bigfishead]

Next time 86 him. If I were to cause a scene and berate your ruling like that, especially if you knowI'm in the business, I'd expect to be done for the night immediately.

[juanez]

Yeah, I really do value player's opinions. Hard to believe for some of you, I know. But getting into a shouting match at the table with a Floor guy from another poker room just seemed like a bad idea at the time. He was REALLY pissed off and just ignoring everything I said (including the rules he should have known himslef). If he continued after I walked away he would have had a "mandatory" discussion with me if he wanted to continue to play poker in our room.

[WYDGD]

Tell him he is a chump for pulling that crap, and also for wanting to steal a pot that wasn't his. It is people like that donkey that make playing poker such a painfull experience some times....

[TonyLA]

Rules are rules - in SoCal it's the same way - the muck is NOT some God-like orb that if cards touch it, the hands are dead. The rule has even been clarified to state that if the cards are reasonably discernable in the muck (face up OR down), they can be retrieved.

I've seen cards face down pulled out of the muck all the time. Nothing you did was out of line at all. You were simply enforcing a rule that the other FS should have known as well.

On a somewhat related note, In SoCal, there's even a rule that if a player *in the hand* asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is STILL LIVE - if the player accidentally mucked the winner, the pot would be awarded to the mucked hand - even if he had folded. (If a player that is NOT in the hand asks to see the cards, then the hand is dead.) I affectionately refer to that as the douchebag rule - it punishes nits who insist on seeing the hand when proper etiquette dictates that you should just be humble about it, scoop the pot and move on. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

- T

[PantsOnFire]

I just had a very similar situation happen to me. I had K4 and the board was AJ2. I pushed a player all-in thinking he would fold all hands but an A and he called with A3. I mumbled something like "crap I need runner, runner" and tossed my cards face up. One card took a nice run and hit the muck.

The other player claimed my hand was dead and the floor came over and ruled my hand was still live. The other player sort of accepted this until my runner, runner hit and then he went into a very significant rant.

This was at the Luxor in Vegas.

[pfapfap]

I wish more brushes were on this forum. In my room a few months back, there was a somewhat similar situation. Down to the blinds, who pay to see a flop. On the flop, BB says, "chop?" which isn't allowed. SB says, "okay," and throws her hand to the muck. A very tiny little corner hits it, and I instantly say, "chopping not allowed, play your hand out". BB protested that her hand was dead, but I told him the muck isn't magic. They table and check to the end, which gives SB the wheel. At that point BB calls the floor, who says "touched the muck!" and rules the hand dead. BB does not offer to chop. I smile when he loses many hands afterwards.

[redfisher]

Did FS actually think he was right? I don't think that most of the rooms I play in enforce this rule uniformly. I was at the table when a similar situation came up and the floor ruled the hand live. One of the other players at the table was bitching for the rest of the down that the ruling was bad because a floor the day before had made the opposite ruling. My point is that just because he's a floorman doesn't mean he knows the rule correctly.

I don't think it helps that the dealers all tap folded hands twice on the muck in IWTSTH situations to "kill" them. I suppose it's for the camera to indicate what's going on, but killing hands by touching them to the muck just reinforces the "magic muck" theory.

[psandman]

The correct response is to throw the muck at the FS, then tell him he touched the muck so he's dead.