25NL: KK vs short stack w/ A high flop - Page 2

ImprovinNewbie · #11 07-22-2007, 03:58 PM

great post.

ImprovinNewbie · #12 07-22-2007, 04:00 PM

i think this is a losing strategy.... only a hand that is WAAAAY beating us is calling a turn shove.

Capone · #13 07-22-2007, 04:02 PM

c/c the turn and betting a good river card is g00t. Or vb river if its checked behind.

Capone · #14 07-22-2007, 04:03 PM

I still like the turn lead though as played.

ImprovinNewbie · #15 07-22-2007, 04:04 PM

unless someone with AJ or something flat called and put you on exactly what you have (-the spade). what hands are calling a 3 bet and still calling a bet on the flop that is not beating you?

orange · #16 07-22-2007, 04:06 PM

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I think that you should have bet this flop for sure after 3 betting PF. An ace is definately in your range. As played on the turn I bet $7 or so. Your hand is already most likely ahead, and you picked up the NFD.

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Are you calling a shove if you bet the flop?

orange · #17 07-22-2007, 04:08 PM

Not saying that bet/folding is that bad tbh...but I would prefer having a read before doing so.

OP,
I don't really think it matters much what you do here. I would either bet and usually fold if he shoves on the turn or sometimes c/c.

Capone · #18 07-22-2007, 04:16 PM

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I think that you should have bet this flop for sure after 3 betting PF. An ace is definately in your range. As played on the turn I bet $7 or so. Your hand is already most likely ahead, and you picked up the NFD.

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Are you calling a shove if you bet the flop?

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No I am not calling a shove, but don't you think a flop lead here is good. I mean if we just check and he bets, he can be doing so with such a wide range of hands but can we just call.

If we lead there is the chance that he will fold, and if he pushes, we can fold here, I don't thin he does that with anything worse.

Don't you think it makes the hand easier to play almighty orange

orange · #19 07-22-2007, 04:34 PM

It makes the hand easier to play, sure. but that doesnt mean its the most +EV way to play it.

tbh, I would probably lead here. but there are definitely arguments for checking- wa/wb, pot control, etc etc. his range for betting the flop > his range for shoving over/calling the flop bet.

ama0330 · #20 07-22-2007, 05:30 PM

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betting this flop has no value. if he has an ace he calls if not he folds. headsup chances you are up against two spades are slim. if villain is solid he only calls preflop with a big ace, or a pocket pair for set value. obviously pocket pair doesnt have FD, and we know where A,K spade is. if you check you give free cards to 2 outers here (pocket pair hitting a set) which is ok if the upside is pot size control.
I would check/call turn, as I don't want to be reraised and forced to fold my nut draw. I'd call a reasonable river bet.

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the problem with checking the flop is that 3betting then checking an ace high flop turns your hand faceup and any smart opponent is going to bet/raise the turn with any two and take you off your hand. basically you have to check AK/AA here sometimes if you want to check KK here, which i wouldn't do against a standard opp with no history.

the other thing is that the pot is already big enough to be "winnable" - so the problem of him folding a worse hand isnt actually a problem at all. if you try and squeeze value out of this spot by showing weakness you will find that you either end up against a better hand at showdown or end up folding.

I like to bet here because i can get away from a shove, and i think that it is sufficiently unliely for my opponent to shove this flop without an ace. similarly, i think a bet is good because the pot is a winnable size and i dont want to play multistreets with this hand OOP in a 3bet pot where I could well be facing a huge river bet and be 50/50 on a call. i dont like to put that kind of money in uncertain.