Adjusting to over-agressive games

[Heisenb3rg]

I played pretty much the worst day of poker in my life and it got me thinking.

I've had a little bit of trouble adjusting to the crazy agressive style of some of the players in the mid stakes. It seems the biggest flaw of a lot of them is that they are TOO spewy..
Because of my enormous schlong, I hate to be out agroed, and it's starting to make me throw bets around way too light as well..

Some things Ive noticed that have changed a lot from 5/10.

1) good players playing back at me with air way more
2) getting capped with Axs & suited connectors preflop HU
3) very agressive value betting
4) Flop 3-bets in position with wide ranges

Im having trouble finding the right balance for my agression.. I feel like im either calling down way too light and being super predictable, or im being super agro with inadequate holdings.. This happens normally once I Get pissed off and frustrated...

Any words of advice or insight would be awsome.. Sometimes even the common sense stuff helps get me grounded again...

Could just be a bad run of cards where my thin agressive actions keep happening in the wrong time, but I think im playing pretty bad the past few days and need to get my head together..

[TwoCathedrals]

dude, I feel your pain. I honestly can't consistently win in these games when I try to multi-table. It becomes so read-dependent.

[Tryptamean]

sounds like a bad run of cards. all the things you listed work to your advantage when you make your fair share of hands.

[sweetjazz]

I would say to tighten up just a smidge, mostly when there's a good chance you'll be OOP against an aggressor with a marginal holding. Try to be careful about spewing bets, but if you are going to spew, do so more with made hands than draws against most opponents. For example, CO open raises and you defend your BB with Q9. Flop comes Q72 and you check/raise, CO 3 bets. Normally, this should mean that you are behind a lot, but in these games you're usually ahead. So sometimes cap flop and lead the turn. Other times call and check/raise most turns. Rarely should you just call down at this point. Of course, you'll run into better hands a fair amount, so there's a lot of variance to this play, but against the right opponents it is a winning play.

I think the key difficulty is #3 that you mentioned -- players who value bet relentlessly, especially coupled with some basic hand reading to know WHEN to value bet. This is what makes games tougher and drives down profits.

Most of all, just go back over how you're opponents are playing and think -- a la the back of TOP -- about what is the best way to exploit what they are doing. Distinguish between those players who are recklessly aggressive and those whose mixed strategy is hard to exploit.

[TheScientist]

Sweetjazz, you may be right, I've only played 10/20+ a handful of times and have been very uncomfortable. But the example you gave, and saying "Rarely should you just call down at this point" just doesn't seem right to me. Capping and leading the turn on that board just seems a recipe for folding hopeless hands with few outs and at the same time leaving yourself vulnerable to being re-raised.

What are everyone else's thoughts here. Am I leaving a ton of money on the table by just calling down in these types of situations (which come up very often).

[jstill]

[ QUOTE ]
Because of my enormous schlong, I hate to be out agroed

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont have much useful advice, ur a real smart kid im sure u ll figure it out on ur own...

all i have to say tho is about the above quote I always assumed the opposite, people with the mentaility of taking things personally in poker or getting back at people, or being more aggressive simply for the sake of being more aggro than their opponents, are also the same ones likely to be on the insecure side or have an inferority complex (not a shot at you just what I would logically conclude).

On a more serious note, It seems to be a reoccuring theme of yours that your play can tend to deteroriate during bad runs (admittedly on ur part), which is too bad becuz u seem even just from ur posts to be one of the better thinkers of this game out there at these limits (maybe the best? ur results coincide as well).

Id say if it gets to the point u feel like u need to get money back soon to get even on a session (so ur not just playing with the intention of just getting hands in and letting the game come to u), or ur image deteriorates very poorly so people are playing back at u more than usual which is making u have more ambiguous decisions about making lighter calldowns due to metagame (particularly when ur out of position this becomes devastating), you should probably just quit the session for a bit. Schneids is a big proponent of this last concept (stop playing when ur image gets awful), as people start to play back with air more which makes it harder to play optimally against their range and they 3bet in position with a wider range just to kind of F with u (which were a couple of ur above points u noticed about differences in 10/20). I always try to stop if I feel like I need to get the money back ive lost on a session but feel hopeless about it happening for whatever reason.

If you like to play through bad runs thats fine but u seem to admit to tilting on occasion so if u cant play through it and still play well probably dont try.

Maybe try playing some more relaxing music while u play or something to keep u mellow, I personally like more uplifting energizing music so I dont get on auto pilot but if shitte starts going terrible or tilt creeps in I switch it up.


And then theres always zen and meditation u could get into on a kind of more random note.

best of luck im sure u dont need it

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]


What are everyone else's thoughts here. Am I leaving a ton of money on the table by just calling down in these types of situations (which come up very often).

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, especially given the board texture that was used. K72r, Q72r, J72r are boards that a lot of people are going to use to play back at you, and try and take you off the weaker portion of your stealing range. If you C/R that type of flop against an aggressive opponent, it's like waving a piece of red cloth in front of a bull: they just can't help it. Also, 3-bets in position on those really ragged rainbow flops are quite often B.S., since it's a perfect spot to balance your turn semi-bluffs with good made hands. Now I think I'll start 3-betting those kinds of flops with strong made hands. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Personally, I love playing with really aggressive players. They're usually very easy to manipulate into building big pots; they really let you use a variety of lines and I absolutely love when the table sees me cap non-TP hands on the flop and value bet the whole way to take the pot. Granted, you have to be somewhat aware of who thinks you're crazy, but I don't mind that.

[Michael Davis]

Truth is the best way to fight guys who are unjustifiably aggressive is to throw more aggression back at them because the pots are bloated, they frequently have weak ranges, and you've got to get your fair share of pots. You should be betting in river spots that you would frequently check down and either call or give up against normal players. Bet more for value and as a pure bluff as they are going to show up with weak ace- and king-highs more often than they should and bet more as a bluff because they will have weak draws more often. No, these statements are not inconsistent, you're just going to have to bet and raise more against guys who show wanton aggression. Yes, hello variance.

Against guys who are tricky/good aggressive and show balance, well, those are the best players out there. They're tough and they may be better than you. Just call a lot.

-Michael

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because of my enormous schlong, I hate to be out agroed

[/ QUOTE ]

all i have to say tho is about the above quote I always assumed the opposite, people with the mentaility of taking things personally in poker or getting back at people, or being more aggressive simply for the sake of being more aggro than their opponents, are also the same ones likely to be on the insecure side or have an inferority complex (not a shot at you just what I would logically conclude).


[/ QUOTE ]

Good insight.. I do feel a need to prove myself to people.. It's a block in my poker game for sure.. If ever I pull a sick move in NL I almost always show my hand as a passive agressive way of saying "Yeah biatch you just OWNED !!!"
I also regret it every time since it gives away a lot about my play..

Discipline in general is a constant struggle between your logic and your emotion.. Both are very indepedent.. Just because im logical doesnt mean I am free of irrational animal desires.

I like the ideas to
a) Play relaxing music while playing
b) leave a table when your image is garbage and it's not extremly juicy

good advice.

As for capping flops more OOP, Ive been screwing around with that more and more recently and it works great.. I even get really light call downs since they always put you on a draw on drawy boards.. Or if a flush draw hits and they dont have it, they wont put in much more either..

Some people like to take it to the next level and freeshowdown raise me after I cap lol.. Then I just have to 3-bet turn right?!?! I think im finaly understanding some of raise/re-raise/raise/fold lines I see at 200/400...

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people like to take it to the next level and freeshowdown raise me after I cap lol.. Then I just have to 3-bet turn right?!?! I think im finaly understanding some of raise/re-raise/raise/fold lines I see at 200/400...


[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of thinking will get you in trouble vs tricky aggro players imo. You will put yourself in a position to get owned too often by better hands, or fold the better hand. I've stopped worrying so much about squeezing every last bit of value out of medium strength hands. No big deal to get freeshowdownraised by worse hands....