how would criminal activity be dealt with in a stateless society?

[Money2Burn]

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As for the response detailing the establishment of a security firm with required membership among the citizens for protection: How is requiring people to pay for protection then punishing them with violence a better alternative to government taxing people and providing law enforcement? Seems to me like the only difference is the former is much more susceptible to power abuse and corruption because there's nothing to keep the power of the security organization in check.

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I'm pretty sure that guy was sarcasticly trying to point out that a stateless society would evolve into a state by that response he effectively described what states do.

[Money2Burn]

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parolees under the current system are shunned every bit as much as your "non-violent punishment" and they manage to survive, whether its by further criminal activity or by legitimate means.


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Do they? Don't most gangbangers either die young or realize what is going to happen to them if they keep on the same trak and reform their lives?

[Copernicus]

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parolees under the current system are shunned every bit as much as your "non-violent punishment" and they manage to survive, whether its by further criminal activity or by legitimate means.


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Do they? Don't most gangbangers either die young or realize what is going to happen to them if they keep on the same trak and reform their lives?

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gangbangers dont die because they are "shunned by society", which was the claim I was responding to.

they die at the hands of another banger or the police. Those that reform dont do so because they are "shunned by society",they realize that if they dont they wind up dead or in jail.

Notice that I said parolees. The clearest example of that is paroled sexual offenders. They are as shunned as anyone can get, including having their names and pictures posted on web sites and registration lists.

they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[Money2Burn]

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they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

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The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

[Copernicus]

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they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

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The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

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Of course it is a mark against a society that has "shunning" (to abbreviate the approach that was claimed would be so effective, but demonstrably isnt) as its primary means of punishment.

[Money2Burn]

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they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

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The current system does no better at preventing this activity, this can't be a mark against stateless societies.

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Of course it is a mark against a society that has "shunning" (to abbreviate the approach that was claimed would be so effective, but demonstrably isnt) as its primary means of punishment.

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But this society's method of punishment is much more violent and expensive and yet is still an inneffective deterrent.

Also, I just realized that you were referring to parollees being able to still find jobs and get food and shelter. Since they have been released from prison it is assumed that they are reformed, or at least they have paid their debt to society so there is no more reason for them to be shunned.

DISCLAIMER - I'm not sold on the whole stateless society, I'm just interested to hear more about it, so I could have a lot of this wrong. Perhaps wtfsvi will get on and elaborate tomorrow.

[SluggishJ82]

This society's expensive/violent punishment, no matter how ineffective it might be, is still a hell of a lot more useful than a system where the only consequence of slaughtering other humans is to have people not want to hang out with you. Large apes of humans dont beat the [censored] out of smaller wealthier citizens on a daily basis for a reason, and that reason is this violent/expensive law enforcement system. I'm sure tons of apes wouldnt think twice to bust up any of us on a whim if the only thing stopping them was a dishonorable reputation.

[Money2Burn]

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This society's expensive/violent punishment, no matter how ineffective it might be, is still a hell of a lot more useful than a system where the only consequence of slaughtering other humans is to have people not want to hang out with you. Large apes of humans dont beat the [censored] out of smaller wealthier citizens on a daily basis for a reason, and that reason is this violent/expensive law enforcement system. I'm sure tons of apes wouldnt think twice to bust up any of us on a whim if the only thing stopping them was a dishonorable reputation.

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Shunning is not the only consequence violent criminals would have to fear in this stateless society. I asked wtfsvi this in an earlier post, if an individual is physically threatened they are allowed to use force back, so any violent criminal has to consider that he might just get his ass kicked.

[plzleenowhammy]

the point of my reply was not to suggest that protection in a stateless society would look anything like current govt.. it was to illustrate the current situation and how bad it is so we can then move forward to the stateless alternatives..

sorry if my sarcasm went unnoticed.

[wtfsvi]

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Notice that I said parolees. The clearest example of that is paroled sexual offenders. They are as shunned as anyone can get, including having their names and pictures posted on web sites and registration lists.

they still find jobs, they still are able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. "Non-violent" law enforcement doesnt work.

[/ QUOTE ] They are not even remotely close to "as shunned as anyone can get". As you point out, they are still able to shop for food and clothing, they still find a place to live. This must be for one of two reasons: Either people don't think what they do is so bad, or people figure it's not their responsibility to enact sanctions, because that's what they have their nanny the government for. I think the latter explanation is most likely.