LO8 Iso raise +lost on the turn.

[NinaWilliams]

Villain is unknown. PF ok? Do I have enough equity to call on the turn?

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero

[Buzz]

Nina - If you're going to raise before the flop and get position, heads up, against UTG+1, then I think you have to also raise the flop bet by UTG+1.

You're completely in the dark here, having no very good idea of why UTG+1 is betting.
Does UTG+1 have a low? Does UTG+1 have a high? Does UTG+1 have both high and low? Does UTG+1 have neither? You have no idea.

I have no idea either.

It's very hard to correct a mistake made on an early betting round when you get to the final big bet rounds.

In my humble opinion you should either limp before the flop and then (since you have missed a decent flop fit) fold to the second round bet, or raise before the flop and then also raise after the flop.

If you don't play that way, and if the cards don't fall out of heaven for you, then you often find yourself between a rock and a hard place on the turn against an aggressive opponent. And that is where you are here.

It's too late to raise. At this point I like calling and showing some tenacity better than meekly folding to the continued pressure. You might do better on this particular hand if you give it up - but then you're more likely to face pressure on future hands.

And you do have a pair of aces with a king kicker with one more card to go. You might catch a winning two pairs for half the pot. A more remote possibility is your live four will win for low after a low card on the river, with your opponent betting high and not having a low after all.

Grit your teeth and call. And next time either limp before the flop and then fold when you miss or bet the hand ultra aggressively to try to bully your out of position opponent.

Buzz

[1MoreFish4U]

Buzz as usual has given you a perfect response.

The flop bet is more often made by the opponent because he has flopped a low draw, or to see where he is in the hand, than because he has flopped a set.

For this reason alone, you should most often respond with a raise heads up.

Aggression in these situations will only help you the majority of the time.

Even if he 3 bets you, I would still call, call his turn bet (because he is likely pushing his low draw or 2 pair) and see the river card.

If I hit 2 pair on the river, and/or a low card doesn't hit, I would pay off the hand to get an understanding of what type of hand the opponent would play this way in this situation.

You play at AP regularly, so imho it is more important to know how this opponent plays than it is to win or lose this single relatively small pot.

[chaos]

In general I would not raise PF in this situation.

You have a nut diamond flush draw. I do not want to chase out players who may have weaker diamond draws.

You have three Broadway cards. If the flop hits your hand you are likely to have top two pair and/or a nut straight draw. Any low draws will be backdoor in this situation. Let the low draws in preflop to build the pot.

You have A4 for low. In the games I play in neither blind is likely to fold either A2 or A3 preflop when faced with a raise to promote my own low to the best low draw.

- chaos

[NinaWilliams]

I was under the impression that my hand plays better HU than multiway, and that I wanted to have the initiative. Maybe Im thinking too much like a LHE player. Is this incorrect?

[Buzz]

As simulated against random hands, heads up you
scoop 41%, split 34%, lose 25%

heads up, if everybody goes to the showdown,
41*1+34*0-25*1 = +16

As simulated against random hands, three handed you
scoop 24%, split 34%, lose 42%

three handed, if everybody goes to the showdown,
24*2+34*.5-42*1 = +23

Draw your own conclusions.

Buzz

[1MoreFish4U]

[ QUOTE ]
As simulated against random hands, heads up you
scoop 41%, split 34%, lose 25%

heads up, if everybody goes to the showdown,
41*1+34*0-25*1 = +16

As simulated against random hands, three handed you
scoop 24%, split 34%, lose 42%

three handed, if everybody goes to the showdown,
24*2+34*.5-42*1 = +23

Draw your own conclusions.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not a mathematical player. I think the simulations show you want to get it HU most of the time.

I just dont see a way that aggression doesnt serve you well most of the time.

I absolutely am a proponent of mixing up your style so that your opponenets have a tougher time figuring out what you are doing. That being said, more good things happen when you lead the action.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont see a way that aggression doesnt serve you well most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]1MoreFish4U - I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely am a proponent of mixing up your style so that your opponents have a tougher time figuring out what you are doing. That being said, more good things happen when you lead the action.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not a mathematical player. I think the simulations show you want to get it HU most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]You lose more often three handed than heads-up. But if your opponents stick it out to the showdown, you collect twice as much when you win and you also collect half of what one opponent contributes when you split (instead of just getting your own money back).

Sometimes, for example as with AJ85n, you end up with a more positive total when you add it all up for heads-up play against random hands.

Here are the numbers for AJ85n
heads-up:
scoop 38%, split 35%, lose 27%
38*1+35*0-27*1 = +11

three-handed:
scoop 20%, split 32%, lose 48%
20*2+32*.5-48*1 = +8

Thus AJ85-rainbow should do better heads-up (against a blind, for example, which is a more or less random hand) than against three or more opponents. (It just gets worse for AJ85n as more opponents are added).

At any rate, with AJ85n, the total is more positive as there are fewer and fewer opponents (making the hand a "pushing" hand).

But the opposite is true of Nina's starting hand. Turns out the hand is more of a "pulling" hand.

There's a lot more involved. For example, if someone has a deuce-trey-Y-Z hand that they'd play without the raise but not play with the raise, then you substantially improve your chance of winning for low by raising. And heads-up the hand has high cards that tend to make higher two pairs than an opponent with random cards. As you add more players, two pairs tends to win less often.

You do win more often when you play against fewer opponents, but each win is worth less, because fewer opponents are paying you off. (In other words the pots are generally smaller when playing heads-up than with more opponents).

It's always a balance between these two factors (and also how much you lose when you lose).

I don't think the pre-flop raise is terrible, and it has merit against some opponents. I might or might not raise with the hand. It would depend on the situation, and that would depend on the history leading up to this hand and what I expected in the future. (I realize that's vague).

At any rate, I would not prefer to play Nina's particular cards heads-up. But the hand does do fine heads-up (just not quite as well as with more opponents who presumably will fatten the pot for the times when Hero wins).

But if she does raise before the pot and gets heads-up, then I think she has to make a sort of continuation raise after this (rather horrid) flop.

Buzz