15-30 LO8 push/pull

[donger]

Most of the field of limpers is fairly loose and this is a good game. Pull em in to build a big pot when I hit or push em out to gain a turn freebie and clean up my BD low draw? Which one is more profitable?


Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $15/$30
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Donger is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Donger raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Donger raises??</font>

[TxRedMan]

preflop is perfect.

flop i just call. if someone has two pair or better they're not folding here, and your hand looks like AA so they might three bet. also you shut out a lot of hands you want to peel a card with you, increasing your equity in the pot.

w/ two low cards i'm more likely to raise this flop.

here, i just call.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is perfect.

flop i just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
SB bets, Donger raises??

[/ QUOTE ]Donger - I hope not! This is a pulling situation. You don't want to push anybody out of the pot!

Since there is only one low card on the flop, your opponents will be reluctant enough to call a single bet, let alone a double bet.

Simply call and hope your remaining opponents think they have favorable odds to continue to a single bet with two of you already in the pot.

A raise here is terrible play, lacking the deft touch you need to be successful at this game.

It's 8/45 you'll catch a non-pairing club on the turn, and then, assuming the board doesn't pair on the turn, it's
36/45*7/44 you'll catch a non-pairing club on the river. That combines to make
0.178+0.127 = 0.305.

Meanwhile your back-door low comes in about one time out of four, something like that.
16*6+12*12 = 240, then 240/990 = 0.242, or about one time out of four.

There's enough in the pot for you to call a bet, and then if the board doesn't pair on the river, you can call another bet on the turn.

But in order to have favorable odds to initiate fresh money into the pot, I think in addition to BB calling your raise, you need three more opponents who will call a double bet with the threat of a re-raise here. I can't imagine that many Turkeys in a 15/30 game.

Buzz

[templar999]

Yeah raising here would be pretty bad. You definitely want to pull people in and the value definitely outweighs the value of your backdoor low and straight draws. I think Ray said (paraphrasing): If the next card can give you the nuts for a scoop, then do not raise to shut out the field if the bettor is to your right. This, along with broadway wraps, would be a perfect illustration of the idea.

[donger]

Yeah, I kind of thought a raise here was bad after I did it. Any nonpairing club on the turn is gin for me and I want the extra bets in the pot from the weak callers.

Would you guys consider raising a hand like K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here? I think raising a hand like that to shut out the field has more merit: I fold better BD low draws, I could have the best high hand and want to protect it, and I could take a free card on the turn if it comes off bad.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you guys consider raising a hand like K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here? I think raising a hand like that to shut out the field has more merit: I fold better BD low draws, I could have the best high hand and want to protect it, and I could take a free card on the turn if it comes off bad.

[/ QUOTE ]Donger - Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would be the best high hand after the particular flop you showed in your opening post of this thread.

Yes, I'd consider raising with that hand, in an attempt to protect it, if I thought that were possible, and also for value, if I thought that would work. And a raise would surely give poor odds to any low draw.

What is a "BD low draw"?

Buzz

[jack21221]

Backdoor low draw. If the next two cards where 7 and 8 for example.

[chaos]

When I have a draw to the nut flush or the nut low, I generally do not want to push people out of the pot. I want the loose players in, calling with their non-nut draws.

Another thing to think about is that raising preflop builds a bigger pot which will make it harder for you to push people out.

- chaos

[You're No Daisy]

Call to control the size of the pot. If a bad card comes on the turn, you're just putting more money in the pot with just a draw. It's even worse if you push people out of the hand with a raise. If the table is loose, the other donks will come along for the ride (they probably aren't there to fold).

Then when you make your hand on the turn, you can punish the the other villains for staying around. When you just have a drawing hand, you want as many people in the pot as possible. Raising in this situation is probably -EV because it has potential to push people out of the pot. The only ones who stick around probably have a better hand than you do (at that point in the hand).

AC