Play a Hand With the Masters Results and Panel Comments

[Lloyd]

A few questions:

Gavin said he'd bet the flop and Sirio said he'd bet it 25% of the time and that he wouldn't make it a "continuation-sized bet". What factors make you want to bet the flop versus checking behind since this is a flop we can improve on. And Sirio, why not a "continuataion-sized bet"? It's not a very coordinated board so if you had an overpair would you bet more than 1/2 to 2/3 the pot? Wouldn't a large bet seem like you were trying to buy the pot?

The turn is obviously a critical moment here. I can't see raising since I definitely want to see the river and don't want to be check-raised for my stack. If check-raised do you call?

On the river, does betting a smaller amount like Soss did (5,000) really make a big difference versus pushing the extra 2,000?

[Toro]

I advocated pushing all-in on the River and as I said in one of my responding posts, I thought a lesser bet was a wasted bet and a mistake.

Judging by the length of time it took for the call, I think the combination of the extra 2000 and villian thinking "would this guy risk his whole tourney on a bluff" would have been just enough to make him fold.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

All this talk about betting 5k vs 7k on the river is just pointless IMO.

He calls 5k he calls 7k.

-Jason

[Stipe_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
All this talk about betting 5k vs 7k on the river is just pointless IMO.

He calls 5k he calls 7k.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with Jason. That is why I chose to check on the river. I don't think there was a bet that would convince him you have a hand or to lay down his hand.

I understand the line of betting the river if you had a read on him in a live game. Soss had a read of "not liking the turn bet", so this is information that could be real useful. Thus, I understand why he put in 5K, making it look like you wanted him to call.

Nice job Lloyd with this thread. It was a lot of fun!!

Stipe

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
All this talk about betting 5k vs 7k on the river is just pointless IMO.

He calls 5k he calls 7k.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing but respect, Jason, but I couldn't disagree more. Especially in person. This guy sounds like exactly the sort of semi-immature player that would react very strongly to the difference between "ALL-IN baby" and "I'll bet 5k." He may not even have noticed that Soss only had 7k left.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

I mean, I guess? I feel like live in big buy in tournies people dont make these mistakes... But then I realized that I busted in wpt paris doing something along the lines of not really calculating the size of someones stack.

[Vorlin]

[ QUOTE ]
All this talk about betting 5k vs 7k on the river is just pointless IMO.

He calls 5k he calls 7k.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is tremendous, but it has nothing to do with the 2000 chips.

If your opponent says: "I'll be a lot but I'm keeping a little here in case I'm beat"; then you know you might have a shot. Since it won't cripple you to try, and the pot is a nice one, you should be inclined to call.

If your opponent says: "I'll bet you my tournament survival that I've got you beat, so here's every last chip I have. Now just throw your money in the middle so I can take it"; you're not going to be very happy about taking a chance of doubling him up when all you have is second pair.

By holding back that 2000, the CO saw that Soss had a contingency plan. Someone who needs a contingency plan is afraid that they might need it. Now, we all know that Soss needed a contingency plan badly! But, you can't let your opponent know that.

5000 vs 7000 isn't a consideration... keeping some for backup vs confidently putting every last chip in the center is.

The kid still might have called... but, considering how hard he had to think before calling that 5k, I can't help but believe that the psycological impact of seeing Soss put every single chip on the line would have induced a fold here.

But that's what we're discussing... what we think. No one will ever know for sure how things would have happened if they'd been done any differently and all anyone can do is speculate.

I know that my posts are rather late after this hand was started but I'd be really interested in seeing comments on my thinking on the flop and turn. I took a rather unusual angle when considering what to do and am wondering about the pros and cons of those angles.

Vorlin

[SossMan]

I just reread this and I feel like I'm reading my 8th grade journal. I can't believe I typed this:

"Basically, there wasn't a card in the deck (except maybe pairing the 9 or T or Q) that I wouldn't bluff/value bet the river with."

So I guess my plan was for him to fold if I happened to be bluffing and call if I was value betting, even though every card that I'm trying to value bet is a scare card and every card I'm trying to bluff changes nothing.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Man.

I really think this could've been better.

Preflop is pretty boring. It has a huge effect on the hand, but there are obviously many different effective ways of not folding your hand, and no one would disagree. I frankly dont care about preflop except maybe what soss was having in terms of visual reads.

The flop is a very very interesting street. I think more interesting than the turn or the river. This hand was analyzed street by street, but the problem is that this hand is most interesting when you consider the entire picture of the hand, and not some street-by-street commentary. I really think with stacks like this I bet that flop more than I check it.

[ QUOTE ]
Looking back and reading the comments, I think that I still check behind there following the rule of not cont betting when in position multihanded.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me this is something that separates the good ones from the poor ones, especially in a deep multi like this one. Here is why you bet the flop:

1) Because they will fold better hands.

2) Because people will call with hands like QT KT AT JT Q9 whatever.

3) Because people rarely bluff raise in multi-handed pots. Im willing to back down on this, but from what I know about Miami john he's not the type to CR here with pure air if you bet the flop.

So why would I list 2 as a reason to bet? Well, its because if you improve your hand you can extract a lot of value, and if you dont improve your hand you can just exit stage left. Its a perfect spot to look for in poker. Your opponent (if he holds QT or something on the flop) will probably willing to go check check check check to showdown, and he will also probably be willing to go check-call pot bet, check-call pot bet. You want your opponents to be in this defensive spot. You hit a jack or maybe even an ace, you can definitely extract some value but also dont have too big a hand where you can probably make a read and fold if you are behind.

Also, something never conisdered in this hand was the flop/turn combination. Damn right I'm suspicious. So you check behind on the flop and then make a nice raise on the turn. I feel like even selling KJ with that line is unbelievable because you are going to bet that flop more than you will check with KJ. I think selling a pair of queens is also unbelievable because you'd probably just call or raise smaller if you thought your opponent was drawing to a jack. The 'raise the turn' to get to showdown play borrowed from limit.

It's clearly the biggest problem with this hand. Once you check behind on the flop and then raise the turn, you are really going to have a hard time selling any good hand. And in those big buy in fields, people are generally not scared to go with their read and call you down. Your villain played very well. There are probably other ways you could've played this hand to get a different result.

-Jason

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Man.

I really think this could've been better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Feel free to send me your thoughts on how to improve via PM. Everyone was asked to submit an interesting hand. This was by far the best one and I don't recall getting anything from you , which I definitely would have liked.